Won't start - electronic ignition module

Post by **ereg340** » 27 Jul 2005 04:50 pm

Tried to start my 1.4 340 on Friday morning and had no joy I just ran the battery flat. A friend came over saturday and tried jump starting it with his Morris Minor but again it would'nt start evn though the starter turned over at full speed. We checked to see if the engine was sparking and it was albiet a very weak spark. In the end my friend poured couple of drops of petrol into the carb and she started.
On monday I decided to pop down the garage to have it looked over, the car was fine that morning, but It sat at the garage a day and a half because they were busy and then they found it would'nt start.
The mechanic who I know to be trustworthy said it could be the electronic ignition module is on the way out . A new one is £300 but I have been quoted £40 for a 2nd hand one. Does anyone know of any tricks to help me soldier on with the car if a 2nd hand replacement is not forth coming.
In all honesty I've had serious doubts about getting it repaired . The M.O.T is in september and there's numerous things wrong with it.
To add insult to injury the window in the drivers side door broke on friday morning as well ,the winding mechanism seems knackered

EREG340

Post by **huskyracer** » 27 Jul 2005 07:29 pm

Seems unlikely to be an ignition fault if tipping fuel down the carb got it going, check the fuel lines from the fuel pump to the carb, and the line from the pump tothe tank, I have seen the line from the tank develop tiny cracks in the wall of the pipe where the clip fits, so when the car was stood for a while it allowed the fuel to run back to the tank, and the pump just sucks on air, once you get it running, it will start cos there will be enough fuel in the carb for it to start, and once it is up and running, it will be ok as the pump is running fast enough to overcome the leak at the pipe....... Its a long shot but well worth a look, also, if it does come to it I still have my old renix ignition unit in the shed

Post by **Chris_C** » 27 Jul 2005 08:20 pm

I second Husky on this... I got Fake running on Monday, after 18months (albiet not trying very hard or very often). After having the carb apart, new fuel pump, etc, I pulled some fuel through the lines with a kite pump, within a week it had gone again. Took the rubber fuel lines off, and they had perished whilst it was sat. New lines in, started on the first key and only took three or four revolutions

One the plus side, I have no idea what I did to the carb, or the choke cable when I reconnected it, but when I bought Fake, I only drove it 50ish miles. All that time (and the blokey said he had the same trouble) it wouldn't idle, you always needed a very small amount of choke, or it would go from happy 1000rpm, to 200 few a few secs and die. He had the solex replaced with a new weber, and it didn't cure it. When I started the thing, with full choke, the revs shot round to 3200, when I put the choke it, it idled at a perfect 800. Now is this a supreme unknown super-power I posess, or have I put the choke cable back wrong and it's just operating on a bit on choke, cos the cable cover is in the wrong place? (I did try to line up the lil hole that the cable grip made though, so it'll be 3mm max different)

Post by **pettaw** » 27 Jul 2005 09:39 pm

Prob you fixed the issues just by taking the stuff apart. The fuel pump was probably supplying aerated fuel for ages causing lean running due to a low float chamber level. Also these 1.7s all suffer from warping of the carb base, causing air leaks. They ALSO warp their inlet manifolds too, so you change the carb and get the car running again, but there's still that underlying warpage causing a small air leak.

This was confirmed on ours by waving an unlit blow lamp round the base of the brand new carb. You could hear the engine note change and actually I could just about see the fumes being sucked in. So we removed the carb and carefully filed the manifold joint until it was as flat as we could get it. I guess you could take it to a machine shop and they could get it really flat for you. The car then ran noticibly smoother.

Also one other thing, there is a fuel cut off valve that cuts the idle circuit. It runs off Fuse 10 and sometimes if there's corrosion in the fuse holder you don't get enough voltage to make the pin withdraw correctiy. The trouble is the car will still run, but almost stalls at idle and drives like the brakes are always on, which can also be air leak symptoms.

Hopefully that might help if probs recur.

Post by **Chris_C** » 27 Jul 2005 10:16 pm

Thanks for that Andy, I will have a check on that when the weather gets a tad better.

Post by **foggyjames** » 28 Jul 2005 05:49 pm

I still need to get to the bottom of why my car looses fuel from the carb when sat....it took 30s of cranking to pump fuel back to it after 2 weeks without being run.

Despite being a supposedly 'famous' failure, I don't know of anyone who's had a Renix unit fail. Given the symptoms, and the reputation of the 1.7's inlet side, I'd start looking there as the other have suggested.

I still can't believe no-one's fitted a 440 injection kit to a (standard!) 340 1.7...a 2.0 injection swap from a 400 into a 340 is undoubtably a better bet than a standard 360 GLT. I envy Vicky with her LPG converted version of this!

cheers

James

Post by **ereg340** » 30 Aug 2005 06:49 pm

Since I 1st posted with this problem. The car passed its MOT with only £61 work needed

. The bad news is the starting problems resurfaced over the last 2 weeks

. with the car failing to start on 4 occasions in the last 10 days. Each time fuel down the carb has got it going but often after a couple of attempts.
On Monday she started running roughly on the way back from work as if she was starved of petrol and one mile from home she stalled in traffic and would'nt start.
I called the AA as I'd run the battery down trying to restart (battery needs replacing as well , it runs flat very quick) . Before the patrol arrived I got her going after giving the battery 10 minutes rest and doing the usual fuel in the carb trick . The AA man could'nt really pin point the trouble other than it concerned the fuel.
This morning the 1st time ever the car started and died at the end of the road and would'nt restart ,making me late for work.
I think its safe to say its not the igintion thats the problem as the car has started playing up on the move. So I asume its the pump or the fuel lead from the tank thats at fault . I started her up 1st time this evening no problem albeit with a bit of a splutter, what I plan to do it let her stand for 24 hours disconnect the fuel lead from the carb and put the lead end in a bottle , turn the starter and if fuel does'nt squirt into the bottle then I'll know for sure.
One of the lads at work says there's a diaphram in the fuel pump and if it gets a hole it means the pump won't work properly . I think I found what he means inside the pump, it looks like a tiny tea strainer and it looked ok to me.
Finally ....
Are the fuel pumps still available to buy new ? also the fuel lead from the tank is it easy to replace?
Must get her going properly for next wednesday or she'll have to go.

Cheers, Will (ereg340)

Post by **morgan105** » 30 Aug 2005 11:31 pm

Have you checked and cleaned the fuel filter in the carb itself? You may be getting bits of debris floating around in the line which obstructs the filter while under pressure when pump is getting activated but settling away from the filter sometimes when the car is switched off.

Another thing you could check is to see if the crank position sensor needs a bit of a clean. This may be dirty but may also be getting some other dirt thrown on to it at times and this will interupt the signal for the timing sequance and result in the car not starting, or stalling while driving and then difficult to start again until it clears enough to obtain a sufficient signal again.

morgan105

Post by **foggyjames** » 31 Aug 2005 12:44 am

Right...well it does rather sound like you're running out of fuel. Where exactly are you pouring this fuel to get it going again? If you're getting fuel starvation, the float chamber inside the carb will be emptying. You can check this by undoing the top cover of the carb following a stall-out, and seeing whether or not the 'well(s)' inside (containing the floats...you'll see what I mean!)...is/are full of fuel. Consult Haynes if you're in doubt regarding how to do any of this.

Things to check...
Fuel pump (swap with a scrapper at first - your friend is quite right - the diaphragms can fail)
Fuel filter (buy new)
Fuel pressure regulator / vapour seperator (if it has one)

If you were anywhere near me, I'd lend you my fuel pressure gauge to check what's happening with the fuel system. I suspect the pump may be on the way out. Does it happen under any specific conditions? Up/down hill? Cruising / heavy load (ascending hills, accelerating, etc).

Morgan's ignition advice is good, and definitely check that stuff, although this does sound more like fuel to me.

On the other hand, an hour at a friendly backstreet garage will almost certainly be cheaper than a new car.

cheers

James

Post by **morgan105** » 31 Aug 2005 01:20 pm

If you have to take your carb apart to check for fuel in the float chamber then check the floats carefully for any small holes in them, they may be filling up with fuel and sinking slightly or altogether and causing the fuel to shut off in the carb. If you take the floats out and shake them you may hear fuel inside them indicating a leaking float.

morgan105

Post by **ereg340** » 31 Aug 2005 05:01 pm

Well,
I left her standing 24 hours then tested the fuel pump by taking the fuel line off the carb and putting the end in a jam jar and turned the engine over.The result was the same as when I tested it yesterday afternoon a decent amount of fuel in the jar. When i put the fuel line back on the carb she would'nt start so for now I will asume its not the pump, its the carb.
I found what I think was the fuel filter, a tiny guaze cylinder type thing , it looked ok to me, no dirt or damage to it but I gave it a clean to be sure.
Tried to start the car again it started and spluttered for about 5 seconds and died the battery is very low so I could'nt restart her. I'll try again later.
Thanks for all your advice,
Ereg340

Post by **pettaw** » 31 Aug 2005 11:28 pm

Almost certainly an air leak. Locate and cure, method posted elsewhere.

Post by **5lab** » 31 Aug 2005 11:31 pm

yeah i would second an air leak. try starting with yer foot full down on the gas.

new renix unit can be had on the cheap from many places. try ebay

Post by **foggyjames** » 01 Sep 2005 12:49 am

Try the reading the stickied post "1.4 running shakey...". It doesn't sound much like vacuum leak behaviour on the face of it, but all things are possible. A holed float will cause the carb to *over* fill. I recently had a similar problem with my fuel pressure being to high - breaking through the needle valve.

Where (roughly...don't need to give away more than you want to!) are you located...maybe someone can call by and take a look...or even source a spare carb?

cheers

James

Post by **ereg340** » 10 Sep 2005 01:33 am

Still off the road its been about a week now, I 've bought a new car (1yr old Fiat Panda

) for work as the old girl was doing over 200 miles a week comuting and I have to have a reliable car for work . No plans to get rid of her as the Mot runs for 11 months and the tax is ok till the end of the year , at least i've got something to jump start her with now. Much as i like my new car I really miss driving the Volvo

EReg340