ignition components and servicing

Various, various and more various!
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mac
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360 poor start

Post by mac » 10 Jun 2006 09:27 am

Hi Giles, I agree with pettaw here - coils tend to work or not, if the coil is faulty it's unlikely to start at all. ( just possible it is starting to break down though).

Your symptoms are more likely to be (as pettaw says) 'thats the way they are'. When the LE system was designed electronic fueling control was still in its' infancy and mixture progression during warm up always was a bit shaky.

However check out the cold start injector and the thermal timer - it can hold the C.S. injector open too long on a warmish day (and give overfuelling). It is also possible that the auxiliary air regulator is sticking (it can get gummed up with oily deposits) That again would give poor idle during warm up as no extra air would be supplied to give warm up fast idle.

It is also possible that the C.S. injector/thermal timer is not working at all or poorly - like starting a carb car without/not enough choke.

Going back to the coil, yes the resistance is a little high but I would worry more if it was out of range on the low side! Your reading could be caused simply by a bit of corrosion (not always obvious) most probably on the HT post. If the car drives ok when hot, and doesn't missfire under load, I wouldn't loose any sleep over the coil (from experience, if it is going to fail it will do so when hot!!).

Does this help ? - if you need extra info get back to us (and let us know how you get on)

Mac

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mac
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Intermittent non start.

Post by mac » 10 Jun 2006 10:06 am

Hi Fuse,

Interesting !. Can't see an obvious connection between parking lamps and ignition but a possibility.........

Main power enters the fuse box via terminal 91 (big red wire bottom right under cover). 12v is then supplied to both the ignition switch and the lighting switch via plug D (the red plug on the back of the box, under the dash - should see 3 plugs red, white ,black - red is the plug on the left). Power then comes back from those switches into the fuse box, again via plug D. (and out again to the Renix and lights (but by just about every other plug except D).

I've looked at the internal wiring of the fuse box and can't see an obvious conflict (but they are damnably complex inside - especially when they get water in them).

Based on your description I would start by looking at that plug D for looseness, corrosion, water ingress, loose terminals , etc, etc, It is just possible that the load of the parking lights is affecting a marginal contact in an adjacent terminal in the same plug.

Other than that, with very intermittent problems, you are just as likely to find the answer by studying the entrails of a goat !

Sometimes all you can do is wait for the problem to get worse, and become more obvious.

All the best Mac.

Giles
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Post by Giles » 10 Jun 2006 03:11 pm

Hi,
Thanks for the suggestions. I really appreciate the quick replies.
In response to Pettaws question; when i say "a bit of starting" what i mean is that it turns over for about 5 or 10 seconds without firing then it runs very rich for about 30 seconds.
I'm used to an '83 360 GLS which jumped into life after just a flick of the key.
I'll check the cold start injector & thermal timer this weekend.
Cheers everyone, Giles.

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mac
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Post by mac » 10 Jun 2006 04:27 pm

Giles - one possibility if it is definitely running rich when it starts, and takes a little churning is a leaking cold start injector.

When you switch off the engine the fuel system remains pressurised by the fuel pressure regulator - if the injector leaks, pressure will decay and will need to be built up again on re-start (hence a little churning). Also a pool of fuel will collect in the manifold and give rich start up mixture which will take a little time to clear. If the leak is very slight you won't notice a problem when hot but you sure will on a cold start - especially in warmer weather.
(for you tech.heads - yes I know pressure rise time is quite short with an LE pump - but the principle is still good).

Also if thermal timer is opening the cold star injector too long.
At -20C thermal timer switches for 7 seconds reducing to 0 seconds @ 35C.
With current temperatures the C.S. injector should only be giving a squirt for about a second max. If you try to start the engine with the C.S.I. out you can see how long it operates for - this will also ensure the fuel system is 'primed' You will only get 1 shot at this - the thermal timer has its own heating coil so you would need to leave it for a while before testing again.
Switch off and watch the end of the injector nozzle - if it is leaking you should see it seep or drip.

THis gives you a little bit more to play with.

All the best Mac.

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petefarrell360
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Post by petefarrell360 » 12 Jun 2006 01:47 am

All interesting stuff I missed here. With Fuses' problem, I have something similar I suppose. It's normally if the car is warm, go to start it and it'll turn over as normal, but with absolutely no intention of catching, doesn't splutter, nothing. But on the second turn of the key, instant sucess. It's not happening all the time, one of the annoying hard to find intermittent faults. But it's annoying but can be embarassing when you know it'll start, but people look and think crappy car won't start. You can crank it for ages on the first turn, or just a few seconds, nothing, but always on the second turn, sucess.

Any ideas?

Pete
G reg 360 GLT, G reg 340 GL Variomatic, plus many more..........

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mac
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Post by mac » 12 Jun 2006 09:02 am

Hi Pete, Problems like this can be a real b#gg#r to find. The first obvious thing is to determine if it's lack of spark or a fueling glitch. (when you crank it does the rev counter 'flick' ?? - if it does the coil is being triggered and it is probably fueling.) Actually I don't know what model you run - I assume 360 - but is it carb.or injection.??

If it's injection it could be C.S.I. problem - but it would tend not to run cleanly when it does start. From your description of complete lack of life I sound like an electrical problem - but whether it's ignition or injectors not opening ????.

Let me know if you're carb or LE and i'll give it some thought (also anything else (ANYTHING) that seems not right (you can often get diagnostic clues from something you wouldn't think was connected)).

All the best Mac.

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Post by SteveP » 12 Jun 2006 09:54 am

Mac, Pete's car is an injection 360
1989 - Volvo 360 GLT
1985 - Volvo 360 GLS
2008 - Volvo S60 SE Lux

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petefarrell360
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Post by petefarrell360 » 12 Jun 2006 10:55 am

Cheers Steve, it is indeed the injection 360 GLT, '89 spec. Cheers for the quick reply Mac. One thing I've noticed on the odd occassion is on the second key turn when it does fire and start, sometimes the revs drop really low within the first couple of seconds and I can catch it by giving it some throttle, then it is fine. It doesn't miss or cough and splutter as such, just the revs drop really low and it will stall at that point if I don't catch it and then with throttle it comes to life.

I honestly cannot remember if the rev gauge flicks or not, I keep meaning to look. Trouble is being an intermittent fault, it's hard to remember to do, as it's a surprise when it happens!

In what you've said about ANYTHING or other unrelated issues, there is something that might link in. If you leave the headlights on when you turn the car off, somtimes it will run on, this could be for a few seconds then cough and splutter and stop. If it doesn't do that, more often than not the headlights will remain on, so not dropping down the sidelights as it should when the ignition is switched off. They remain on for varying amounts of time, sometime only an instant, other times up to 15 seconds or so. Then they drop down to sidelights as they should. I can't remember which symbols it is on the dash warning lights that have a dim glow to them while this happens, possibly the central exclaimation mark warning light is the main one. Pettaw and myself think that that could be down to a sticking relay, as you can then hear the relay click as the lights go off.

This makes me think that if it sticks for turning off and running on, it could do the same the other way, as in stick so it won't start, but the second attempt triggers it enough or something!

Pete
G reg 360 GLT, G reg 340 GL Variomatic, plus many more..........

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Post by mac » 12 Jun 2006 01:29 pm

Hi Pete, Much for the grey cells !!

Initial thoughts - As it will crank over every time the ignition switch (teminal 50) is supplying 12v to the starter solenoid each time. No problem there.

At the same time terminal 15 of the switch triggers the ignition controlled services relay. this then directs 12v (looped through the fuse box) to both the Renix and the injection system relay. The system relay powers the ECU and the fuel pump. What you need to know is (if this is an electrical problem and I am almost certain it is) where. in failure mode, 12v is getting lost. As other consumers are fed by the ignition relay you can use these to check it. Try staring the car without seatbelts (seatbelt warning is fed by ign.relay) does the warning still work in 'failure mode' (if it does - ign.relay is fine).

Next suspect is injection system relay in failure mode - does 12v appear on the system relay terminals 87 and 87b ?? (ECU and fuel pump). If ok, does the fuel pump run on cranking - if not suspect pump line fuse ! (usual bullet fuse corrosion).

I have drawn a basic wiring diagram for you showing wiring colours and terminal numbers (can post full wiring if needed).
Image

None of this will affect you lighting symptoms (the lighting relays are controlled from ignition switch terminal 75 (Blue wire). EXCEPT of course that each problem system goes through the ignition switch. I have known them to give quite weird symptoms. Your lighting symptom is almost certainly the main lighting relay remaining 'on' (side lights do not go through it), but whether the relay is sticking (and yes they can) or whether it is being held on by 12v when it shouldn't ??? there is the question.

It is a possibility that the occasional poor running is caused by low voltage caused by sticking/burnt relay contacts but I don't think so (ECU won't work at all if Vs' drop below threashold and failing relays tend to get worse if the problem is contact resistance.)

If I had to take a flyer at this I would suspect you have a dicky ignition switch but it is incredibly difficult to diagnose at long range (sometimes not much easier with the car in front of you!!!).

Way to proceed is to find out exactly what is going on - if it's not the ign. relay, rig test lights on the sytem relay and see what happens when it fails again. Personally I would rig a couple of 12v l.e.d.s on the sys relay outputs and see what's what.

All the best Mac.

Anyway, this a few ideas for you - let me know if I can do owt else - and let us know how you get on.

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Post by petefarrell360 » 12 Jun 2006 02:22 pm

Wow, thanks for the in depth reply and diagram Mac. I'm 80 % sure I've seen the seatbelt light on when it happens, so that's one thing eliminated, but I will double check that if and when it happens. I'm pretty sure you're dead right about it being electrical, as when I've experienced fuel problems it'll at least cough and splutter about and attempt to catch. At the moment I know it will work on the second attempt and will always start, but as you say, things often get worse and that's what I'm worried about.
Thanks,
Pete
G reg 360 GLT, G reg 340 GL Variomatic, plus many more..........

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Re: ignition components and servicing

Post by arpski » 21 Mar 2017 02:56 pm

This is quite old topic, but i give it a try.

I have 340 1.4 CVT volvo from 87 or 86, ive checked everything and there is no spark at all. I bought new coil and capacitor, still no effect, there is earth and +12V on white plug, engine speed sensor is working (around 200ohms). Is it the renix control unit broken? I checked and it shows 1500ohms not 0 as you said (where the coil is plugged, 2 bolts).
Its number is 406031-02 S 100750 416 A, i cannot buy this anywhere on earth eh :/
Any advice?

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mac
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Re: ignition components and servicing

Post by mac » 21 Mar 2017 04:30 pm

Hi arpski,

An old topic yes, but still as relevant as ever!

You appear to have diagnosed your problem - if you are measuring 1500 ohms accross the Renix unit coil contacts it does indeed suggest a faulty unit - rare but not unknown (obviously ensure the contacts are perfectly clean).

You can confirm "no spark" by attaching a spark plug to the "coil lead" from the Renix coil and grounding it - crank and look for a spark. If no spark and the Renix inputs are all ok then suspect unit.
If you do get a spark directly from the coil then look for a problem with cap, rotor, and leads (also check the obvious that the distributor is actually turning ok).

If you do need a 412 Renix (which is the unit your car should be fitted with), it should not be impossible to find a known good unit for you - where are you located??

Mac.
88 5door Redline 1.7 52k - 19 XC60 Momentum Pro D4 AWD 17k
1950 pair of legs that don't work very well.

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bogbasic
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Re: ignition components and servicing

Post by bogbasic » 21 Mar 2017 10:47 pm

Hello, I looked today and I have a 415A which I think came from Benji. I would prefer to keep it since it is the right spare for my 1.7's. However, if you are desperate and promise not to race or wreck the car, we can talk.... Also, 416 does not appear in MAC's table as one of the Renix's for a 340 so maybe worth checking that you have the right number.

ttfn, bogs.
1988 340 1.4 GL, 218k, 5 door (Grey Bess). Gone to CBA.
1991 340 1.7 GL, 64k, 5 door, petrol blue (Deep Blue).
1988 360 2.0 GLE, 140k, 5 door, ocean blue metallic (Blue Bess).
1989 340 1.7 GL, 108k, 3 door (Red Ness).
More info here!

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Re: ignition components and servicing

Post by arpski » 07 Apr 2017 01:18 pm

mac wrote:Hi arpski,

An old topic yes, but still as relevant as ever!

You appear to have diagnosed your problem - if you are measuring 1500 ohms accross the Renix unit coil contacts it does indeed suggest a faulty unit - rare but not unknown (obviously ensure the contacts are perfectly clean).

You can confirm "no spark" by attaching a spark plug to the "coil lead" from the Renix coil and grounding it - crank and look for a spark. If no spark and the Renix inputs are all ok then suspect unit.
If you do get a spark directly from the coil then look for a problem with cap, rotor, and leads (also check the obvious that the distributor is actually turning ok).

If you do need a 412 Renix (which is the unit your car should be fitted with), it should not be impossible to find a known good unit for you - where are you located??

Mac.
Thank you for the answer.
The car is in Europe, Germany to be exact.
There is no spark not even on renix coil unit, is there anything i can check to be 100% sure that the renix unit is fault?

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mac
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Re: ignition components and servicing

Post by mac » 07 Apr 2017 07:28 pm

Hi there arpski,

If you ensure that you have 9.5 - 12.0 volts on cranking at terminal 3 of the Renix wiring plug , a good earth (0 ohm) on terminal 2 and are sure that the flywheel speed sensor is working - a no spark condition from the coil output really can only be coil or Renix unit itself.

You appear to have an incorrect resistance value across the coil connections (of the unit) which is good evidence to suggest a faulty unit - rare but by no means unknown!

The next obvious step would be a substitution test using a known good unit. I will see if I can find a one in my "collection" - if I can I would be happy to loan it to you for test purposes - that at least would confirm or rule out the Renix.

There really isn't much else that could cause your problem - if you're testing for spark directly at the coil you can forget leads, distributor, cap, rotor, plugs etc.
There are a few theoretical possibilities such as the flywheel not turning (detached from engine) - you are measuring across the speed sensor but are you getting a signal?? (I have come across one case of flywheel bolt failure where the symptoms were cranking but no start - however this was accompanied but rather a lot of noise!)

A quick check for a speed signal is a flicking of the rev counter on cranking (if you have a rev counter) the trigger signal is taken from terminal 1 of the Renix.

Mac.
88 5door Redline 1.7 52k - 19 XC60 Momentum Pro D4 AWD 17k
1950 pair of legs that don't work very well.

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