Brake Upgrades

Front axle, springs, shock absorbers, wheels, bearings, calipers, drums...
Tuning: suspension, discs, alloys upgrade...
NO parts requests here, please use our V3M BUY & SELL corner

What size wheels would you want to run a brake upgrade with

13"
20
47%
14"
15
35%
15"+
8
19%
 
Total votes: 43

Ride_on
Posts: 2239
Joined: 26 May 2009 05:34 pm
Location: Belfast, N. Ireland

Re: Brake Upgrades

Post by Ride_on » 19 Jun 2018 10:15 pm

So I have been working with Olof Eriksson who is redoing the A170/190 adaptor in Solidworks.

So for the adaptor we have the following quotes from 3Dhubs CNC
1=£142
4=£310
10=£500
Material doesn't make a huge difference and I'd prefer mild Steel

Other costs
Disk machining = £25 (2 disks)
Mercedes used parts (A140/170 W168) = £50 (2 carriers and calipers) loads of them available
Disks (A190 W168 276mm) = £40 (yes £20 each!)
Pads :£50 (greenstuff only seems available, £80 for red normally, really orange is needed for track use)
Lines: not sure yet, and not sure if the master will drive it well. (300 piston 48mm, Merc A140 piston 54mm)

Total: say £350 for a big brake upgrade for 15" wheels

Could get the adaptor cheaper with manual loading and a more angular design, but £70-50 isn't too bad.

Now my dilemma is that I really want a 4 pot solution so the 14" GLT wheels fit (hopefully). Looking at Wilwoods as a cheap option at £300+ for new calipers alone
1980 345 DL_______1987 360 GLE (project car restored to GLT spec and B230FT'd)
1984 360 GLT______1987 360 GLT
1983 360 GLS______1989 360 GLE
1985 340 GL_______1986 340 1.4
1985 360 GLS______1995 940 SE 2.3 Turbo Estate (daily)
1987 340 GL 1.7

User avatar
Gabor
Posts: 35
Joined: 31 May 2014 09:54 am
Location: Pomáz, Hungary

Re: Brake Upgrades

Post by Gabor » 21 Jun 2018 01:35 pm

It's unfortunate that I just have met with this thread, because it would save some time form me. :(

I'm working on a similar solution, but I use MINI (BMW) brake calipers. Now I'm on the same level of the workflow as well. I just printed out the prototype of the adapter.

The MINI discs are almost perfect fit for the 360 hub, but smaller diameter holes are required.
Attachments
untitled.662.jpg
360hub_MINIbrake_adaptor_assembly
mini 1st.gen..jpg
MINI disc spec
mini 1st.gen..jpg (36.34 KiB) Viewed 2467 times

Ride_on
Posts: 2239
Joined: 26 May 2009 05:34 pm
Location: Belfast, N. Ireland

Re: Brake Upgrades

Post by Ride_on » 18 Jul 2018 11:00 am

Mercedes adaptor redesigned in solidworks and PLA printed. To be tapped and assembled soon.
We now have a step file for CNC thanks to Olof.
Attachments
IMG_20180718_104735.jpg
IMG_20180718_104735.jpg (112.72 KiB) Viewed 2378 times
IMG_20180718_104722.jpg
IMG_20180718_104722.jpg (153.76 KiB) Viewed 2378 times
1980 345 DL_______1987 360 GLE (project car restored to GLT spec and B230FT'd)
1984 360 GLT______1987 360 GLT
1983 360 GLS______1989 360 GLE
1985 340 GL_______1986 340 1.4
1985 360 GLS______1995 940 SE 2.3 Turbo Estate (daily)
1987 340 GL 1.7

Ride_on
Posts: 2239
Joined: 26 May 2009 05:34 pm
Location: Belfast, N. Ireland

Re: Brake Upgrades

Post by Ride_on » 04 Aug 2018 02:10 am

Metal adaptors are in. Got EBC green stufff pads for road + blue stuff on order for track.
Also building up new disk guards with inlet pipes (ducted from fog light aperatures) and centre air directors.
Motul 6600 race fluid.
Attachments
IMG_0794s.jpg
IMG_0795s.jpg
1980 345 DL_______1987 360 GLE (project car restored to GLT spec and B230FT'd)
1984 360 GLT______1987 360 GLT
1983 360 GLS______1989 360 GLE
1985 340 GL_______1986 340 1.4
1985 360 GLS______1995 940 SE 2.3 Turbo Estate (daily)
1987 340 GL 1.7

Ride_on
Posts: 2239
Joined: 26 May 2009 05:34 pm
Location: Belfast, N. Ireland

Re: Brake Upgrades

Post by Ride_on » 10 Aug 2018 02:35 pm

Fog light air feed collectors
Air collectors.jpg
Fog light air collectors for brakes
1980 345 DL_______1987 360 GLE (project car restored to GLT spec and B230FT'd)
1984 360 GLT______1987 360 GLT
1983 360 GLS______1989 360 GLE
1985 340 GL_______1986 340 1.4
1985 360 GLS______1995 940 SE 2.3 Turbo Estate (daily)
1987 340 GL 1.7

Ride_on
Posts: 2239
Joined: 26 May 2009 05:34 pm
Location: Belfast, N. Ireland

Re: Brake Upgrades

Post by Ride_on » 20 Aug 2018 12:53 am

So I couldn't get the fog light air feed printed, our work machine wasn't big enough for the base plate and we didn't have time to print the scoop, so I tie wrapped the pipe in and duck taped it, but duck tape don't hold at 110+.

Anyway I've tested the Mercedes upgrade on the track, I need to strip down again and review but there where a few problems.

Good:
1. In general pedal feel and travel was good (similar to original) with the larger piston calipers
2. Fade toook much longer and the green stuff pads lasted much longer than the DS2500 360 pads. Blue stuff wasn't ready in time. Brembo road pads I was getting sparks apparently
3. Brake balance felt ok, all good in the wet
4. Everything looks a perfect fit

Bad
1. Severe vibration when very hot, the front of the car was bouncing
2, Got pulling to one side towards the end of the day, when hot
3. Getting some squeal and rub marks on the outer corner of the disk during very hard cornering (not braking obviously) (tighening the bearings didn't help), I think its both disks.
4. One of the rears was locking up towards the end

Theories
-Possibly the pulling and rear locking up could have been a rear brakes issue, they are probably due replacement, they last a year maybe on this track (6 outings maybe)
-Vibration, one of the disks did seem a little wrong, with a regular rub on the pads from the outset, its was a cheap disk, but also the mounting surface is 1.3mm thinner than the the 360 and a bigger area before any of the vertical reinforcement kicks in.
-The squealing could be down to flexing of the stub axle with the bigger diameter disk. Assuming the strut can take the forces ok, this just needs a little clearance. Strip down should reveal where its touching.
1980 345 DL_______1987 360 GLE (project car restored to GLT spec and B230FT'd)
1984 360 GLT______1987 360 GLT
1983 360 GLS______1989 360 GLE
1985 340 GL_______1986 340 1.4
1985 360 GLS______1995 940 SE 2.3 Turbo Estate (daily)
1987 340 GL 1.7

Ride_on
Posts: 2239
Joined: 26 May 2009 05:34 pm
Location: Belfast, N. Ireland

Re: Brake Upgrades

Post by Ride_on » 27 Aug 2018 01:21 am

So after strip down think I found the cause of the possible sparks and whining on hard cornering. I don't think I was getting as much deflection as I thought, Just the very edge was touching and it seemed to be on an unmachined area. Possibly I didn't allow just quite enough space for thermal expansion, and this carrier is not designed for this disk diameter. For measurement I shimmed the sides of the disk evenly and used the same amount for the top of the disk, then put the pads in and they seemed perfectly situtated.

In the test drive it was wet so I couldn't replicate the cornering, and I think I'd need the track again to test it. Braking was good, no vibration.

So I still think the disk is a bit unstable on the mounting face, seems to be fine in normal conditions but race conditions it is warping. There is a much bigger unspported area and it is thinner than the 360 disk, so I'm making a reinforement that will be screwed to the disk. A laser cut job seems to be costing about £4 each.
I'll also get a new set of MTEC grooved and dimpled disks with the correct centre hole and use the strengthener to drill it.
Attachments
IMG_0801s.jpg
Painted MGB back plate, with air pipe added
IMG_0804s.jpg
Fitted after track day abuse (cooling pipes need adjusted)
IMG_0805s.jpg
Adaptor in place
IMG_0812s.jpg
Touching area when hot
IMG_0813s.jpg
smig more clearance
Strengthener.jpg
Replacement for wheel clamping used in the merc (for vibration when hot).
1980 345 DL_______1987 360 GLE (project car restored to GLT spec and B230FT'd)
1984 360 GLT______1987 360 GLT
1983 360 GLS______1989 360 GLE
1985 340 GL_______1986 340 1.4
1985 360 GLS______1995 940 SE 2.3 Turbo Estate (daily)
1987 340 GL 1.7

360beast
Posts: 832
Joined: 27 Dec 2013 08:40 pm

Re: Brake Upgrades

Post by 360beast » 27 Aug 2018 09:14 pm

I'm watching and interested in the updates but have nothing to add sadly other than to say a very interesting and worthwhile project.

Ride_on
Posts: 2239
Joined: 26 May 2009 05:34 pm
Location: Belfast, N. Ireland

Re: Brake Upgrades

Post by Ride_on » 01 Jul 2019 04:19 pm

So finally got the strengthener fitting done to stabilise the weak disk face. I left some final machining to do a little detailing, but it turned out difficult to find a friendly machine to do this on.

The laser cutting worked well and was fairly cheap. I'm using this as a drill guide so hole sizes are for this purpose.

4 hub bolt holes are 10mm, to be widened to 10.5mm if necessary (longer bolts go in here for the extra thickness).
10 securing bolts are 7mm hole for taping to M8x1 fine. Need drilled out to 8 or 8.5mm.

The little Mercedes disk securing screw got in the way and forced my 10 bolt holes very close to the large Merc wheel stud holes. Down to maybe 1-2mm material, depending on fine adjustment.

Also the M8 bolts are a bit shallow on thread, getting 4t. Tempted to put on some nuts on the back, but need to be low profile.
Attachments
20190701_002236s.jpg
back side facing hub.
20190701_002218s.jpg
Strengthener replacing wheel
20190701_002206s.jpg
5mm thinkness adds good amount of material to 4mm disk
1980 345 DL_______1987 360 GLE (project car restored to GLT spec and B230FT'd)
1984 360 GLT______1987 360 GLT
1983 360 GLS______1989 360 GLE
1985 340 GL_______1986 340 1.4
1985 360 GLS______1995 940 SE 2.3 Turbo Estate (daily)
1987 340 GL 1.7

Ride_on
Posts: 2239
Joined: 26 May 2009 05:34 pm
Location: Belfast, N. Ireland

Re: Brake Upgrades

Post by Ride_on » 21 Aug 2019 01:29 am

So the brake test track day went very well. No real brake problems to report, bit of squealing that reduced once run in and a bit of scoring which is common with high temp track pads (Blue stuff). Braking was achieved with increasing confidence mainly limited by the tyres and driver.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CiciYFtRYXs

For the final details I used nuts on the bolts that secure the strengthener to the disk as 1 disk was ok but the second one wouldn't take the 40nm I was trying to achieve. This was partly down to the slight adjustment on position leading to the thread to be in the merc disk securing screw recess. The use of the nuts then (again on 1 hub only) required the hub to be trimmed by a hair to allow the disk to drop down properly.

Incidentally the inner hole also needs chamfered to fit the hub as it design to fit on the other side. A hand chambering using a power file worked fine.

I also completed the air scoops which helps too.

For disk supply and drilling, its possible to buy a the disk with PCD and centre hole cut from MTEC but I wanted to position the holes against the strengthener, as the position is critical. They only do additional work of finished disks, not sure if you can get undrilled disk , ie without any merc holes. I'll have a look into that.

As an additional recommendation, I note that my 360 mtec dimpled and grooved disks failed following about 2.5yrs of abuse on that track (not catastrophically but well cracked). While I was there a newish focus ST factory disk cracked badly (no extra machining), I think it was about 2 yrs old. While its not a firm pattern I am beginning to suspect the problem is overheating and age. So if you see any signs of crazing on the disk surface change the disks, and certainly consider change after 2 years.

For that reason I'll provide 3 strengtheners so you can keep 1 as a drill guide.
1980 345 DL_______1987 360 GLE (project car restored to GLT spec and B230FT'd)
1984 360 GLT______1987 360 GLT
1983 360 GLS______1989 360 GLE
1985 340 GL_______1986 340 1.4
1985 360 GLS______1995 940 SE 2.3 Turbo Estate (daily)
1987 340 GL 1.7

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