pilot bearing install on B200

Post by **jtbo** » 19 Jul 2006 06:58 pm

arnagath wrote:Thank you mac very much. I really appreciate this info with a lot of pics
I really hope that this problem figures out with only changing propshaft..I will keep you in touch with this subject. I will do this operation within a month.

Jtbo,problem is coming with rpm but not when gear is in neutral

Or have i just putted propshaft already wrong?!?

I would check that gearbox before anything else, as if it would be in torque tube it should not matter if there is gear in or not, it rotates always when clutch is not pressed and should make similar symptoms if it is on gear or not.

But of course anything is possible so diagnostics is needed, I recommend to start with easiest part first though

Post by **jtbo** » 19 Jul 2006 07:07 pm

mac wrote:Hi jtbo,

I must admit my first thought was a broken up CV joint on one of the driveshafts or a failed stub shaft bearing in the diff - and if the problem is only there 'on the road' it cannot be drive quill or gearbox input shaft. (which would give the problem stationary in neutral gear).

However arnagath seems confident that he damaged a drive quill bearing and it is (in his words) 'smashed'. He thinks a change of torque tube will cure the problem - and I'm happy to post the info he wants. I did try to get more to the root of the failure but I'm still not sure either of us fully understand each other!! I still wonder if it will turn out to be a bigger problem than he thinks!

I guess we'll hear soon enough,

Mac.

Yes and very nice information you put up in here, I really think these instructions should be in some sticky as surely this is one that all cars need some time if they are not scrapped

I was thinking how hammering to propellershaft would affect other components and that is gearbox mainshaft that would transfer energy forward and as it sounds now it may be more in gearbox area, but of course it is difficult to make good diagnose from front of computer from information that is translated twice

But indeed hope to hear how things are proceeding and hoping that it is not bad problem, but easily repairable.

Post by **mac** » 19 Jul 2006 08:35 pm

Hummmmm!!!

If the problem is NOT there in neutral it almost certainly is not the torque tube or gearbox input shaft since both these will be turning at engine speed regardless of gear selection. (the only possibility I can think of for the torque tube to be at fault is if a bearing has partially displaced allowing the quill to 'whip' only under driving loads). Other than that I feel it is most probably a failure of a differential output shaft or a drive shaft constant velocity joint. (if it is a driveshaft CV joint it will be very easy to repair).

Good luck arnagath - Mac.

Post by **arnagath** » 21 Jul 2006 08:34 pm

I was thinking of that possibility too that there is not any failure at propshaft, because this rattling sound etc doesnt come when gear is in neutral

-Is there possibility that this sound is coming from differential/ rearend. If there isnt any oil, would it sound like that?

-Or is possible that this sound is coming from clutch?! And its only adjusting clutch?

I thought that now im still getting that "new" propshaft, im changing it anyway.First i have to check those easier things..

And by the way, i just remembered that once i was looking answer to this problem with my friend, we lifted rear up and tried to switch gears with different rpm`s, then i noticed that this sound was coming rear of the car

And im still wondering why car shakes a bit when im running at 3000-4000rpm..also when getting rpms upper it shakes more and feels like its going to pieces

This shaking is defenately coming from rear, i really feel it from my ass

Post by **jtbo** » 21 Jul 2006 08:49 pm

All those things you describe are sounding like gearbox to me, it can do that shaking, it can be rpm related too and that KLONKS thing too can be gearbox trouble.

Clutch is at front and also it does not matter if car is on gear or not in that end, only gearbox and anything that is behind is affected by having gear on, if problem is in any forward from gearbox then it should be there even on neutral as everything front of gearbox is rotating always when clutch is up, also one shaft in gearbox, then when you have gear on, there is two (or was it even three?) shafts in gearbox, differential and driveshafts rotating.

This leads to my conclusion that if problem does not happen when car is on neutral it have to be somewhere behind torquetube.

Now if you put your car to neutral when it starts shake really bad what happens then? Does shaking stop? Same test, but push only clutch down, leave gear on, is there any changes?

But if you change torquetube, check that gearbox while you remove tube, it is really annoying to find out that hard work did not help at all

Also check driveshafts, however if problem is in those it should be speed related, not rpm related.

Post by **arnagath** » 22 Jul 2006 09:42 am

This shaking does not happen when car is stopped or gear is in neutral.
It seems like rpm related,well..also speed related

because its due to rpm..
I might not remove propshaft,just only gearbox, because gearbox-oils are easier to change

By the way..when i changed rearaxle i also changed and removed driveshafts, if driveshafts are not lubricated properly would it make noises and shakes??? What kind of grease i should put inside driveshafts? Would normal vaseline go?

Im thinking now ALL possible problems:
-Clutch
-Propshaft
-Gearbox
-Differential /Rearend
-Driveshafts

Anything else??

Post by **mac** » 22 Jul 2006 10:44 am

Mornin' all,

If we ignore the remote possibility of drive load induced 'whip' of the quill shaft , or a clutch/flywheel being loose and only displaying problems under load we can, with reasonable confidence, say that that this problem is not related to the flywheel, clutch, torque tube and g/box input shaft. All these rotate at engine speed when the clutch is engaged regardless of the selected gear (even in neutral).

(jtbo - the gearbox is basically a two shaft design with a mainshaft and a layshaft. The layshaft is a single piece with fixed gears. The mainshaft is the usual split type with various selectable gear/synchromesh units. The 5th. gear clusters are in an extension housing on the rear of the main case and could almost be regarded as a 3rd shaft and idler arrangement. The M47/M47R box is really an M45 with a 5th.gear stuck on the back).

When any forward gear is selected drive is taken from the engine, via the clutch, and torque tube to the g/bpx input shaft. Drive then transmits through the selected gear/synchro hub to the layshaft and to the g/box output shaft (the other half of the mainshaft), through the 5th.gear cluster (which may or may not be engaged) and into the differential pinion and crownwheel. Drive output to the wheels goes through the planet gears to the diff.stub shafts and then to the driveshafts which have a constant velocity joint at each end. All of these components are subject to road speed infuence. The differential, short shafts, and driveshafts are influenced by road speed only whilst the gearbox from the layshaft on is subject to engine speed and/or road speed depending on gear selected, and clutch position.

Now I must be very clear - arnagath - Vaseline is most certainly NOT NOT NOT suitable to lubricate the CV joints!!! (before any bright young comedy head suggests, no you can't use KY jelly either!).
If the driveshafts are the fault, re-greasing at this stage won't help at all - the one giving the symptoms will be too far gone! You can get a good idea if a CV joint has broken up by grasping the shaft and seing if you can feel any play either radially or axialy (with the h/brake on you shouldn't really feel any). If the symptoms lie here you should be able to feel it clearly.

If a driveshaft is at fault just fit another one - with respect, if you think vaseline is good for CV joints don't even think of taking the joint boots off!
You should use a quality Lithium based grease to lubricate the joint balls and housings.

I am sorry if this sounds patronising - I suspect something may be lost in the translation here - 'vaseline' in this case may be 'Finglish'

In conclusion - if the problem is at the same ROAD SPEED regardless of gear selected them it most probably lies in the diff or driveshafts. if however the speed differs depending on whether 2,3,4, or 5th. gear is engaged then the failure is more likely to be in the gearbox.

Mac.

Post by **jtbo** » 22 Jul 2006 11:36 am

It is indeed Lithium grease in here too, typically gray stuff even when new, it is not too expensive, or at least was not when I last time bought some, but that was before we got this Euro currency...

My drivers side driveshaft has little play, maybe 1/16th of full circle and this is with handbrake on, however it is not yet making sound and seem to be working quite normally, maybe there is bit more loose in driveline when I lift clutch so sometimes it feels impossible to make smooth gear changes, but it has been so whole time I have had car.

But if it gets enough bad it surely can make bad sound and other funny things. (In Focus those won't last even 100 000km and there is lot of shaking when pushing throttle)

Oh yes, now I remember, once I did testdrive 300 that had rear wheel bearing busted.

It felt quite ok until got to 2nd gear in, but that horrible roaring noice and vibration came then and it was clearly speed related, also turning steering wheel from left to right and back did change sound a lot, but it was not with rpm as if I did put clutch down sound was still there.
(After stopping car was blowing blue smoke from air vents and as we opened hood we could not even see engine, drivers seat was fixed with piece of firewood, etc...)

Post by **arnagath** » 23 Jul 2006 02:53 pm

jtbo wrote: Oh yes, now I remember, once I did testdrive 300 that had rear wheel bearing busted.

It felt quite ok until got to 2nd gear in, but that horrible roaring noice and vibration came then and it was clearly speed related, also turning steering wheel from left to right and back did change sound a lot, but it was not with rpm as if I did put clutch down sound was still there.
(After stopping car was blowing blue smoke from air vents and as we opened hood we could not even see engine, drivers seat was fixed with piece of firewood, etc...)

This seems SAME problem as i have in my car

I have to check driveshafts, gearbox and also those rear wheel bearings. I thought that im going to buy all new bearings for frontwheels and rearwheels anyway..

How about those driveshafts? I have changed rearaxle and also changed driveshafts from 340..Is it quite exact when mounting driveshafts? Because i just putted driveshafts to place and bolts on and tightened..I did no measurment for those

Im going to remove gearbox anyway because i have to change oils to gearbox and differential/rearend and its much easier to do like that

But, how im going to check that gearbox is ok? Do i have to put it to pieces?

And again thank you VERY VERY much mac and jtbo

Post by **mac** » 23 Jul 2006 03:22 pm

Arnagath,

Before you take the gearbox/diff out again drain the oil from both - if the oils are clean with no swarf or metal 'bits' the fault probably doesn't lie there. It's resonably easy to re-fill g/box and diff oils - and has been well covered in previous posts (if you search back you'll find all the info with pictures you would need). Jack the rear wheels up so they are free (handbrake off) and hold one of the driveshafts and turn the wheel back and forth with your other hand - if you have a shaft problem you should be able to feel play or wear.

Grasp the roadwheel in both hands and 'shake it' - feel for play in and out and side to side. The problem you describe seems bad enough to easily detect it, (damn - it's a pity you don't live near one of us - I,m sure this could be found quickly).

Don't take the transaxle out until you are sure you need to.

All the best - Mac.

Post by **arnagath** » 23 Jul 2006 06:48 pm

mac wrote:Arnagath,

Before you take the gearbox/diff out again drain the oil from both - if the oils are clean with no swarf or metal 'bits' the fault probably doesn't lie there. It's resonably easy to re-fill g/box and diff oils - and has been well covered in previous posts (if you search back you'll find all the info with pictures you would need). Jack the rear wheels up so they are free (handbrake off) and hold one of the driveshafts and turn the wheel back and forth with your other hand - if you have a shaft problem you should be able to feel play or wear.

Grasp the roadwheel in both hands and 'shake it' - feel for play in and out and side to side. The problem you describe seems bad enough to easily detect it, (damn - it's a pity you don't live near one of us - I,m sure this could be found quickly).

Don't take the transaxle out until you are sure you need to.

All the best - Mac.

Transaxle? Do you mean propshaft?

Post by **mac** » 23 Jul 2006 06:55 pm

Sorry arnagath - 'transaxle' is the term used to describe the rear mounted gearbox and differential as a unit. (the word comes from 'transmission and axle').

Good luck, Mac.

Post by **EVERY TIME I DIE** » 02 Dec 2008 02:03 am

Do i need to do all this to replace my clutch???

Post by **jtbo** » 02 Dec 2008 11:23 am

EVERY TIME I DIE wrote:Do i need to do all this to replace my clutch???

Pretty much so, even Autodata (software that many garages use) will give 8 hours as estimate (if my memory works correctly here), but mine was replaced in bit over 4 as garage had experience and few extra hands available.

Look what I found from my dark pit of information:

Post by **EVERY TIME I DIE** » 02 Dec 2008 02:26 pm

cool

would have been better if there was no torquetube