360 LSD.

B14, B172, B19/200, D16 engine, ignition, cooling, fuel & exhaust system, gearbox, variomatic, final drive... | Tuning: engine swaps, welded diff, clutch upgrades...
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Ride_on
Posts: 2247
Joined: 26 May 2009 05:34 pm
Location: Belfast, N. Ireland

Re: 360 LSD.

Post by Ride_on » 23 Jan 2016 08:30 pm

My build is documented earlier in the thread with all the photos. I used new bearings and they seemed to be ok, 'good level of stiff', I didn't look at the backlash, there maybe a little. Don't know how that would sieze the internals though.

To be clear, my diff is not unlocking I cannot move the wheels differentially by hand.

Where would you get shims that fit in varying size? These are big ones on the outside?
1980 345 DL_______1987 360 GLE (project car restored to GLT spec and B230FT'd)
1984 360 GLT______1987 360 GLT
1983 360 GLS______1989 360 GLE
1985 340 GL_______1986 340 1.4
1985 360 GLS______1995 940 SE 2.3 Turbo Estate (daily)
1987 340 GL 1.7

Ride_on
Posts: 2247
Joined: 26 May 2009 05:34 pm
Location: Belfast, N. Ireland

Re: 360 LSD.

Post by Ride_on » 25 Jan 2016 02:47 am

Well I've made some progress after removing the internals from the casing.

Removed the end cap bolts and found they where too long having bound up at the end, and reverse engineering the torque was only 20-23nm. The end cap wouldn't budge and I didn't want to damage it by hammering. However the diff was still locked. I may cut these down, but would be useful to know the correct torque.

Removing the crowheel bolts unlocked the diff and it was possible to counter-rotate the flanges (put in again after removing from the casing). In fact they move pretty freely. Tightened them up again to an intermediate torque, still free. Only when using the full torque (90nm) does it lock up solid.

I found the 90nm figure by reverse engineering the originals. I marked them, lossened, then tighened up measuring the torque to get the marks aligned. To get this tight I needed a special technique to hold it (shown in the build pictures).

Nimmiz, did you use a specific torque or just whatever you could manage? I've tried contacting the other buyers but so far 2 have said they havn't fitted them.

I might try slightly a lower torque, but really it should take the OE torque.
1980 345 DL_______1987 360 GLE (project car restored to GLT spec and B230FT'd)
1984 360 GLT______1987 360 GLT
1983 360 GLS______1989 360 GLE
1985 340 GL_______1986 340 1.4
1985 360 GLS______1995 940 SE 2.3 Turbo Estate (daily)
1987 340 GL 1.7

Ride_on
Posts: 2247
Joined: 26 May 2009 05:34 pm
Location: Belfast, N. Ireland

Re: 360 LSD.

Post by Ride_on » 25 Jan 2016 03:13 am

Just reread my build thread and noticed the diff was locked then too. I guess I assumed it was correct it would be stiff but actually the diff should be loose and it should be possible to turn the wheels by hand in opposite directions the same as a normal diff. According to what I've read a Torsen will only transfer torque when there is some so hand moving them should not cause any locking.
1980 345 DL_______1987 360 GLE (project car restored to GLT spec and B230FT'd)
1984 360 GLT______1987 360 GLT
1983 360 GLS______1989 360 GLE
1985 340 GL_______1986 340 1.4
1985 360 GLS______1995 940 SE 2.3 Turbo Estate (daily)
1987 340 GL 1.7

360beast
Posts: 833
Joined: 27 Dec 2013 08:40 pm

Re: 360 LSD.

Post by 360beast » 25 Jan 2016 09:16 am

At least you know for sure there is a problem with the diff and now it just a case of finding out what, good luck.

Ride_on
Posts: 2247
Joined: 26 May 2009 05:34 pm
Location: Belfast, N. Ireland

Re: 360 LSD.

Post by Ride_on » 25 Jan 2016 03:48 pm

Yeah well making progress.

Some other thoughts
The new module was difficult to install to the crownwheel and heat was needed (oven at 180)
Perhaps the mating faces are not flush
Seems like the module casing is distorting on the application of the full bolt torque
Nothing to do with crown backlash, this is out of the outer casing.

One theory is that with the crown being too tight a fit it is distorting the casing on full bolt torque, this could be caused by measuring for fit rather than designing (therefore needing Volvo's measurement and tolerance). Possibly a trim on a lathe might sort it.

Will try lower torques tonight, but I think anything <70nm would not be desirable. Will also try and resettle the module in the crown if I can get it apart again.. oven time. Maybe some washers to replace the crown and/or to space the bolt out a little and keep out of the weak thread area.
1980 345 DL_______1987 360 GLE (project car restored to GLT spec and B230FT'd)
1984 360 GLT______1987 360 GLT
1983 360 GLS______1989 360 GLE
1985 340 GL_______1986 340 1.4
1985 360 GLS______1995 940 SE 2.3 Turbo Estate (daily)
1987 340 GL 1.7

Ride_on
Posts: 2247
Joined: 26 May 2009 05:34 pm
Location: Belfast, N. Ireland

Re: 360 LSD.

Post by Ride_on » 25 Jan 2016 11:47 pm

Looks like the diff module is not sitting flat on the crownwheel. In the process of cooking it now to remove (hopefully), then see whats going on.

I'm measuring 15.6mm in one of the blind holes to 16.1mm in the other (back of crown to base of diff module). The 0.5mm difference!
IMG_2185s.JPG
Internals with flanges loosely in.
IMG_2185s.JPG (86.47 KiB) Viewed 7779 times
IMG_2183s.JPG
Flush at the bottom
IMG_2183s.JPG (66.64 KiB) Viewed 7779 times
IMG_2184s.JPG
0.5mm more at the bottom
IMG_2184s.JPG (60.74 KiB) Viewed 7779 times
1980 345 DL_______1987 360 GLE (project car restored to GLT spec and B230FT'd)
1984 360 GLT______1987 360 GLT
1983 360 GLS______1989 360 GLE
1985 340 GL_______1986 340 1.4
1985 360 GLS______1995 940 SE 2.3 Turbo Estate (daily)
1987 340 GL 1.7

Ride_on
Posts: 2247
Joined: 26 May 2009 05:34 pm
Location: Belfast, N. Ireland

Re: 360 LSD.

Post by Ride_on » 26 Jan 2016 01:53 am

Deeper in now but not there yet.

The diff module is the same size as best I can measure as the Volvo cage, although the edge is a little damaged.

The deeper reason for the problem is that (in my case at least) the insert for the crown wheel lifts the mating surface of the module and leaves a gap between the 2 parts around the bolts. The base of the diff module is full of (purposful) holes and quite weak to the bolt torque bending the outside edge against this insert.

The insert (came with the diff) is very smooth and the helical gears rotate against it halfway across the insert outside egde. It maybe designed to suck oil from the gap or not rotate against the less smooth mating surface of the crown wheel.
IMG_20160126_005616.jpg
gap in bolt area
Either;

1. The insert is too high and needs shaved down or
2. Its not flush for some reason or
3. It is designed this way and a much lower torque is needed or
4. I need to shim the mating surface around the bolt holes and close the gap
1980 345 DL_______1987 360 GLE (project car restored to GLT spec and B230FT'd)
1984 360 GLT______1987 360 GLT
1983 360 GLS______1989 360 GLE
1985 340 GL_______1986 340 1.4
1985 360 GLS______1995 940 SE 2.3 Turbo Estate (daily)
1987 340 GL 1.7

Ride_on
Posts: 2247
Joined: 26 May 2009 05:34 pm
Location: Belfast, N. Ireland

Re: 360 LSD.

Post by Ride_on » 27 Jan 2016 02:56 am

Tonights exciting installment is that I think I have the problem.

After getting my heat assembled insert out with a newly invented technique due to lack of liquid N, some measurements indicate more of the story.

The insert seems to be designed to be flush with the surface, the lower step is shorter than the crown so cannot bottom out leaving a gap and the top step seems to be within 0.05mm heightwise as best I can measure. The problem seems to be the outer diameter that is 77.3mm when the hole in the crownwheel is 77.0. The corners look ok (ie not interfering) but its hard to be sure.

So my solution would seem to be to trim down this outer dia by 0.2-0.3mm. This is stopping my diff module bedding down on the crownwheel properly.

Atchi, is it possible to check the drawing or with the mfr to see what it should be. Do I have an out of spec part? Is the design intent to be flush? Is it meant to be an interference fit?

Please note my measurements are only reliable when considered relatively. I can get a more calibrated absolute measurement in work if necessary.
IMG_20160127_013302.jpg
Insert and crownwheel
1980 345 DL_______1987 360 GLE (project car restored to GLT spec and B230FT'd)
1984 360 GLT______1987 360 GLT
1983 360 GLS______1989 360 GLE
1985 340 GL_______1986 340 1.4
1985 360 GLS______1995 940 SE 2.3 Turbo Estate (daily)
1987 340 GL 1.7

Ride_on
Posts: 2247
Joined: 26 May 2009 05:34 pm
Location: Belfast, N. Ireland

Re: 360 LSD.

Post by Ride_on » 28 Jan 2016 12:34 am

Not much progress today but one of the other guys who hadn't fitted theirs also had similar measurment with 0.2 over on the insert diameter. They also had the main unit over-sized by 0.2.

If the tolerances need to be tight you need to measure a number of OE units to determine the actual manufacturers specification otherwise its a fettle-fit and its possible the mfr intended this.

Sounds like you need a machine shop to fit this, not quite a straight swap unfortunately.
1980 345 DL_______1987 360 GLE (project car restored to GLT spec and B230FT'd)
1984 360 GLT______1987 360 GLT
1983 360 GLS______1989 360 GLE
1985 340 GL_______1986 340 1.4
1985 360 GLS______1995 940 SE 2.3 Turbo Estate (daily)
1987 340 GL 1.7

perkabrod
Posts: 27
Joined: 25 May 2013 09:15 am

Re: 360 LSD.

Post by perkabrod » 28 Jan 2016 05:05 pm

I took my diff to a machine shop and they remove approx 2/10 mm from the diff housing in order to fit in the crown wheel.

Still haven't dealt with the small distance plate, it is slightly too large in diameter, and maybe that's also why it doesn't sit flush when I put it inside the center of the crown wheel

Image

Ride_on
Posts: 2247
Joined: 26 May 2009 05:34 pm
Location: Belfast, N. Ireland

Re: 360 LSD.

Post by Ride_on » 28 Jan 2016 09:22 pm

Yes thats what I'm saying. When I measure the depth of steps on the insert and in the crown, it seems to be designed to be flush, its just the big diameter thats slightly over-size.

The diff doesn't work when the insert is not flush (after the crown bolts are tightened), its just completely locked like a welded diff.

The insert seems to have 2 functions

1. To hold/centre the output shaft gear.
2. To support the end of the helical gears
Last edited by Ride_on on 13 Feb 2016 02:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
1980 345 DL_______1987 360 GLE (project car restored to GLT spec and B230FT'd)
1984 360 GLT______1987 360 GLT
1983 360 GLS______1989 360 GLE
1985 340 GL_______1986 340 1.4
1985 360 GLS______1995 940 SE 2.3 Turbo Estate (daily)
1987 340 GL 1.7

miniswift
Posts: 205
Joined: 15 Jul 2010 07:05 pm
Location: Newton Hall, Durham

Re: 360 LSD.

Post by miniswift » 29 Jan 2016 12:10 am

Hi,

I have sent last photo to the guy who made it for me.
So please bear with me.

Cheers
Atchi

Ride_on
Posts: 2247
Joined: 26 May 2009 05:34 pm
Location: Belfast, N. Ireland

Re: 360 LSD.

Post by Ride_on » 29 Jan 2016 03:13 pm

Cool, ideally we also need to know;

1. What sort of fit is needed for the insert and diff module to the crown - interference, tight, snug, clearance?
2. Is the insert expected to be flush? If so what spec? +0 to +0.05mm?
3. Expected Torques for crown bolts and diff module end cap (90nm and 23nm?)

for the rest Volvo specs should be relevant.

I'm trying to collect a number of bearing shims at the moment, we may need to exchange thickness information or combine our spares. Worse case get some laser cut.
1980 345 DL_______1987 360 GLE (project car restored to GLT spec and B230FT'd)
1984 360 GLT______1987 360 GLT
1983 360 GLS______1989 360 GLE
1985 340 GL_______1986 340 1.4
1985 360 GLS______1995 940 SE 2.3 Turbo Estate (daily)
1987 340 GL 1.7

Ride_on
Posts: 2247
Joined: 26 May 2009 05:34 pm
Location: Belfast, N. Ireland

Re: 360 LSD.

Post by Ride_on » 30 Jan 2016 03:06 am

Just reading up on the green book which was pointed out in the resources sections. Lots of useful info

Part numbers and rules of thumb for bearing shim calcs
Torques for crownwheen bolts - 137Nm (M12x1.25 bolts)
Torques and locking for bearing retainer bolts
Specs on backlash and how to change the shims.
And how you can never ever change the pinion, well without the right tools and new parts.

So you need shims to get the bearing pre-load, then you might need to change them again for the backlash. Not sure how to measure the bearing pre-load with the pinion in, hopefully backlash is big enough. Need a shim kit!
1980 345 DL_______1987 360 GLE (project car restored to GLT spec and B230FT'd)
1984 360 GLT______1987 360 GLT
1983 360 GLS______1989 360 GLE
1985 340 GL_______1986 340 1.4
1985 360 GLS______1995 940 SE 2.3 Turbo Estate (daily)
1987 340 GL 1.7

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volvodspec
Posts: 1921
Joined: 06 Dec 2008 09:35 pm
Location: Netherlands.
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Re: 360 LSD.

Post by volvodspec » 31 Jan 2016 12:04 pm

my 343 is also equipped with one of these, no problems on assembly and a perfectly working LSD

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