Bjorn - '85 Vario making noises

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S10NPH
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Bjorn - '85 Vario making noises

Post by S10NPH » 19 Jun 2012 10:14 am

Hi.  I’m looking for a little help with the vacuum system on my 1985 variomatic.  
 
Ever since I bought it, the car has been extremely loud, but I’ve been reassured that the vario system is naturally quite loud.
 
Anyway, at the BKV last weekend, I met Nick and Joe Hayward with their collection of variomatics. I had a drive in one and a ride in another around the site, and the difference is stark – they are wonderfully silent, and a joy to drive.  Upon further discussion, we worked out that my car is probably not gearing up through the overdrive circuit of the vacuum valve.
 
The low ratio hold switch is also a puzzle – it makes no difference when it’s switched on (which makes sense as the car is already in low ratio mode as the overdrive isn’t happening), but also the bulb does not light up. The bulb looks fine, and I have tried a spare low ratio hold switch unit and that is also exactly the same.
 
At home, I did a quick check and the overdrive solenoid does not ‘click’ when the engine is revved, which means that it is not activating, and no vacuum is drawn into the pulleys as the engine speed increases in order to assist the gearing up.  
 
I have also checked my diaphragms, and they appear to be fine (I blow into the hoses until my face turns purple, and the air then comes back out at me).
 
So last night, I fitted the vacuum valve overhaul kit supplied by Robert, and fitted a new tachometric relay supplied by Nick (who assured me he had tested it, and it definitely works).  Unfortunately the problem has not been solved and the overdrive solenoid still does not operate, and the LRH switch again doesn’t light up and makes no difference.  On that note, could someone confirm what colour wires should be on the middle and on the right on the LRH switch (as you look at it from the front, with the bulb on the left), as the wiring diagrams I’ve seen look slightly confusing – I know the blue one goes into the bulb on the left.
 
So, on the assumption that the tachometric relay is working correctly (it is in fact the third that I’ve tried in the car, so chances are, they all probably fine), and that the vacuum valve is working correctly, what could possibly be the problem?  All I can think of is that the tachometric relay is not getting the signal to tell it what the engine speed is, and I will check the wiring to the renix unit if I get a chance tonight.  Incidentally, how does the renix unit know what the engine speed is?
 
Does anyone have any help or guidance please as to what else I should try?
Last edited by S10NPH on 29 Jul 2013 10:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
1977 Volvo 343 DL 1.4 Vario TUJ 247R
1980 Volvo 345 DL 1.4 PGH 590V
1981 Volvo 345 DL 1.4 ECR 312W
1985 Volvo 340 DL 1.4 Vario B168 DTU
1982 Volvo 245 GLT 2.3 Auto VKN 137X
1997 Saab 900 Convertible P290 DDF and 2018 VW Tiguan S10 NPH

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thebear54
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Re: Variomatic vacuum valve - no overdrive

Post by thebear54 » 20 Jun 2012 12:06 pm

My first suggestion (and it is the standard :lol: )
Have you changed ALL the hoses...and are they properly installed ??

Check the hose diagram, ensure that the hoses on the Vario are not loose and are the proper size. I know it sounds simple but sometimes the simple things give people the most grief. :wink:

With the low hold indicator... check the wires in the shift column. I had a loose wire there as well on my 343. There are three; purple, yellow & green.

John
DAF CLUB of AMERICA Director & DAF MUSEUM-USA Director

macplaxton
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Re: Variomatic vacuum valve - no overdrive

Post by macplaxton » 20 Jun 2012 12:36 pm

Sion,
S10NPH wrote:they are wonderfully silent,
Hmmm, relative to yours maybe, but they're not electric milk floats...:lol:

Irrespective of the electrics/vacuum. Did any Vario guys comment on the whistling transmission?

What you have is a wiring issue. Time to get the multimeter out and work through it.
72 DAF 44 Estate 78 Volvo 343DL Black BeautyImageImage
82 Volvo 343DL CVTImageImage 88 Volvo 340DL Diesel

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S10NPH
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Re: Variomatic vacuum valve - no overdrive

Post by S10NPH » 20 Jun 2012 12:51 pm

Rich - I agree with you, I think it is a wiring issue. Neither the LRH switch nor the 4 way vacuum valve are getting any power when they ought to be, as far as I can see. Furthermore I bought a new bulb for the switch and got it tested yesterday, but the light still doesn't illuminate. I will invest in a multimeter and poke around. And before you ask, I have changed the relevant fuses!

Unfortunately, I didn't actually take my vario with me to the BKV, just my manual 345. I'll deal with the whistling transmission after I sort this electrical issue! And yes I might be exaggerating slightly about the silence of the correctly set-up varios, but mine screams its head off in comparison to theirs.
1977 Volvo 343 DL 1.4 Vario TUJ 247R
1980 Volvo 345 DL 1.4 PGH 590V
1981 Volvo 345 DL 1.4 ECR 312W
1985 Volvo 340 DL 1.4 Vario B168 DTU
1982 Volvo 245 GLT 2.3 Auto VKN 137X
1997 Saab 900 Convertible P290 DDF and 2018 VW Tiguan S10 NPH

macplaxton
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Joined: 09 Feb 2008 02:29 am

Re: Variomatic vacuum valve - no overdrive

Post by macplaxton » 20 Jun 2012 01:33 pm

Best get the the electrical green book out and get your head round the circuits.

The tachometric relay / tachorelais /drehzahlrelais counts the pulses from the ignition coil. If greater than x rpm then it stays in overdrive unless something else overriding it. Er, need to think for a minute. Renix would work off the flywheel / crank position sensor. I'm going to have a cup of tea...
72 DAF 44 Estate 78 Volvo 343DL Black BeautyImageImage
82 Volvo 343DL CVTImageImage 88 Volvo 340DL Diesel

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nvdw
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Re: Variomatic vacuum valve - no overdrive

Post by nvdw » 20 Jun 2012 03:04 pm

macplaxton wrote:If greater than x rpm then it stays in overdrive unless something else overriding it.
That 'something else' can either be the switch on the throttle cable, located where the pedal would be if you floored it, a switch on the master brake cylinder, or the low ratio hold switch. If only one of these is triggered, the variomatic goes into 'screaming mode' (4000 rpm @ 30 mph and counting, good lord!). Especially the kickdown switch on the throttle cable is prone to failure.

The wiring diagram, courtesy of V3M (see also 'ERE). The ones you need to look at are 7, 8 and 10.

Image

The connector to the tachometric relay:

Image

As you can see in the diagram, 7, 8 and 10 are connected in series and are all NC or Normally Closed contacts. When open, a multimeter will detect a resistance at connector 6 on the tachometric relay. This is used to activate the low ratio hold circuit of the EMV, and automatically disables the other half of the EMV. When closed, the NC's are connected to an earth. If you don't have a multimeter, you can also use an auxiliary wire to connect the switches to an earth yourself to find out which one is faulty. Or which ones are faulty, as in theory all three of them could have failed.

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S10NPH
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Re: Variomatic vacuum valve - no overdrive

Post by S10NPH » 20 Jun 2012 06:08 pm

Thanks - yes I've already been studying that wiring diagram very carefully, so I'll work through the LRH, throttle and brake switches.

I have just bought a digital multimeter (for the grand total of £6.99), so I'll have a poke round tomorrow evening after work. Now here is the dunce's question - what do I actually do with it to test, and what should it be measuring :oops: ?
1977 Volvo 343 DL 1.4 Vario TUJ 247R
1980 Volvo 345 DL 1.4 PGH 590V
1981 Volvo 345 DL 1.4 ECR 312W
1985 Volvo 340 DL 1.4 Vario B168 DTU
1982 Volvo 245 GLT 2.3 Auto VKN 137X
1997 Saab 900 Convertible P290 DDF and 2018 VW Tiguan S10 NPH

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nvdw
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Location: Glass City, NL

Re: Variomatic vacuum valve - no overdrive

Post by nvdw » 20 Jun 2012 07:42 pm

This is all taken from the V3C help page,

Disconnect the connector from the tachometric relay. Switch on the ignition (no starting necessary), and attach one of the multimeter leads to the battery negative lead. Poke the other one into the connector at the connections summed up below (the connector, not the relay itself).

Image

4) is earth. Use the ohm or resistance setting (Ω). What you want is 0 (zero) ohm.
5) is positive. Use the 20 DC(V) setting. You should get the battery voltage as a readout.

6) is where all the fun starts :)
Again, select the ohm setting. As you can see, all the input from the three switches goes in here. Again, what you want is 0 (zero) ohm. With the multimeter still attached, try the switches yourself and see what happens. Kickdown switch: pedal to the metal. Brake switch: use force. Low ratio hold switch: switch on and off. Ideally, you get a readout of infinite ohm when applied, quickly going back to nought when you let the pedal go / switch off the LRH.

macplaxton
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Re: Variomatic vacuum valve - no overdrive

Post by macplaxton » 21 Jun 2012 01:07 am

Thanks for the details, I was suffering brain fade earlier.

Anyway, you might want to look closely at the throttle cable earthing arrangement on that car. Before Alex had it, Mr Butler had problems with the throttle cable and as he is no mechanic, a garage did some work it...

Did you do GCSE Physics Sion? I've got a (Scottish) Higher in it, but I couldn't tell you much about it now. :oops: I've got a college cert in Motorcycle Electrics though.
72 DAF 44 Estate 78 Volvo 343DL Black BeautyImageImage
82 Volvo 343DL CVTImageImage 88 Volvo 340DL Diesel

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S10NPH
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Re: Variomatic vacuum valve - no overdrive

Post by S10NPH » 21 Jun 2012 08:59 pm

I've just been out with my multimeter. Plug 4 of the tacho isn't showing as 0, it fluctuates wildly and so I conclude that it isn't earthing.

When I try plug 6, the three switches have no effect.

I feel it's the throttle cable switch. I have taken it off, and it looks like this:
Image
The small copper spring inside was not making a connection to the metal plate at the back, it was quite far off. I have pushed it back so that it touches the metal plate. A connection is made, and I get the correct readings in the multimeter.

When I reconnect it, I get a click in my solenoid when I lightly touch the accelerator, hurrah! However, by operating the accelerator any more than minutely, it pulls the white plastic down with it and breaks the connection.

So...what is the throttle switch supposed to look like when it's healthy, and how exactly does it operate?
1977 Volvo 343 DL 1.4 Vario TUJ 247R
1980 Volvo 345 DL 1.4 PGH 590V
1981 Volvo 345 DL 1.4 ECR 312W
1985 Volvo 340 DL 1.4 Vario B168 DTU
1982 Volvo 245 GLT 2.3 Auto VKN 137X
1997 Saab 900 Convertible P290 DDF and 2018 VW Tiguan S10 NPH

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S10NPH
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Location: Cambridge

Re: Variomatic vacuum valve - no overdrive

Post by S10NPH » 21 Jun 2012 09:41 pm

Actually, I've worked it out for myself, well at least how to fix it.

Image

I need a clip or something to keep the spring in place, which fits in the groove in the top of the plastic, it's missing. I shall go down to my local motor parts place tomorrow and see if I can find something suitable. What is the clip supposed to look like?

I'm still not entirely sure how it works, but I'm unlikely to care if it all fixes itself after I clip the spring in place!
1977 Volvo 343 DL 1.4 Vario TUJ 247R
1980 Volvo 345 DL 1.4 PGH 590V
1981 Volvo 345 DL 1.4 ECR 312W
1985 Volvo 340 DL 1.4 Vario B168 DTU
1982 Volvo 245 GLT 2.3 Auto VKN 137X
1997 Saab 900 Convertible P290 DDF and 2018 VW Tiguan S10 NPH

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S10NPH
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Location: Cambridge

Re: Variomatic vacuum valve - no overdrive

Post by S10NPH » 21 Jun 2012 11:08 pm

Actually, having spoken to Rich on the phone, I remembered I had a spare throttle cable in my shed!
Image

It looks a little manky, but I'll fit it on Saturday and report back.
1977 Volvo 343 DL 1.4 Vario TUJ 247R
1980 Volvo 345 DL 1.4 PGH 590V
1981 Volvo 345 DL 1.4 ECR 312W
1985 Volvo 340 DL 1.4 Vario B168 DTU
1982 Volvo 245 GLT 2.3 Auto VKN 137X
1997 Saab 900 Convertible P290 DDF and 2018 VW Tiguan S10 NPH

macplaxton
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Re: Variomatic vacuum valve - no overdrive

Post by macplaxton » 22 Jun 2012 12:39 am

Don't throw the old one out. They'll be a way of cobbling it back together somehow, or using bits of it as a donor. :wink:
72 DAF 44 Estate 78 Volvo 343DL Black BeautyImageImage
82 Volvo 343DL CVTImageImage 88 Volvo 340DL Diesel

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mac
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Re: Variomatic vacuum valve - no overdrive

Post by mac » 22 Jun 2012 10:55 am

Sion,

I've got a whole range of 'e' and 'c' clips "in stock" - i'm sure we can "fix" the old cable.
Give me a ring mate.

Mac.
88 5door Redline 1.7 52k - 19 XC60 Momentum Pro D4 AWD 17k
1950 pair of legs that don't work very well.

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S10NPH
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Re: Variomatic vacuum valve - no overdrive

Post by S10NPH » 23 Jun 2012 01:26 pm

Well, it's done! I actually repaired the old throttle cable as it was creating a better earth than the new one. I had to adjust the throttle cable on the carburettor though, as with the spring in place it was in tension at idle and so the engine was merrily revving away like it had a ghost driver!

The driving experience is much much improved, and the engine is at a normal operating speed at 30mph. There's still some loudness from the transmission and quite a pronounced whistle. I'll put the car on axle stands either tomorrow or next weekend and adjust the belts (I've never done it before). Any ideas of what to look out for that might be causing transmission whistle? As I said, the vacuum chambers seem to be holding air so that's good.

One other issue that's arisen is that idle engine speed in neutral or park is now much higher than in drive or reverse. I'm assuming that isn't normal, and I'll try to adjust the idle speed down when I borrow Oliver's timing light.

Mac, I'd be very grateful for a little 'c' clip to repair my spare throttle cable, if you could bring one next time I see you. You were out yesterday when I rang.
1977 Volvo 343 DL 1.4 Vario TUJ 247R
1980 Volvo 345 DL 1.4 PGH 590V
1981 Volvo 345 DL 1.4 ECR 312W
1985 Volvo 340 DL 1.4 Vario B168 DTU
1982 Volvo 245 GLT 2.3 Auto VKN 137X
1997 Saab 900 Convertible P290 DDF and 2018 VW Tiguan S10 NPH

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