F7P swap sump questions... And curious spring.

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tommysb
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F7P swap sump questions... And curious spring.

Post by tommysb » 27 Jun 2009 01:59 pm

I'm at the point of swapping the sumps in my f7p conversion. What I need to know is, where I've removed the old sump, how clean it needs to be for the gasket compound. I'm just picking the old stuff off by hand first, wiping away the oil, and scraping the remaining stuff. Do i need to go as far as wet/dry papering the surfaces?

Also...In the oil filter that sits in the bottom of the engine, (I'm not sure what it's called, basically the sticking out thing when you take the sump off), I found an odd part. I can't take a photo, as don't own a camera. But it's like the spring from inside a ballpoint pen, only about 20cm long. I can't see any reason for it to have been there. Any ideas what it might be, and why it's there?

It was just resting in the filter bit, i assume it had been pressed between the sump and the filter!

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volvodspec
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Re: F7P swap sump questions... And curious spring.

Post by volvodspec » 28 Jun 2009 12:29 am

is the rear crankseal leaking??

it's probably the spring from that seal. consider yourself very lucky that it didn't go anywhere it shouldn't. the thingy sticking out of the engine when removing the sump is the oil pump, it has a siff on the bottom of it making sure no metal bits are sucked in potentially blocking the oil pump.

there are special cork gasket sets available for the sump, quite often delivered including rubber seals for the crank sides of the sump. if you still only want to use liquid gasket, just a proper deagreasing will do fine, make sure you do the engine side too.

tommysb
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Re: F7P swap sump questions... And curious spring.

Post by tommysb » 28 Jun 2009 09:11 am

Thanks. I'll have a look at the engine diagrams in my Clio manual and see if I can locate the spring...

I'm having a couple of clearance problems with the volvo sump at the moment... The plastic tray as part of the clio engine, around the oil pump seems to be a couple of millimetres too far over, meaning that the holes from the sump and the block don't quite align.

Has anyone else come across this? Is it ok to remove/rework (cut/file down) the plastic resevoir tray from the clio engine so that the volvo sump will fit?

Cheers,

tom

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340GLT
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Re: F7P swap sump questions... And curious spring.

Post by 340GLT » 28 Jun 2009 07:00 pm

Just cut it down mate, its a windage tray to stop oil splashing around.
Adam
F559 LFE - 340R 2.0 16v
C208 CTR - 340 1.8 16v
D300 LBO - 360 GLT 3 Door Turbo project!! (and restoration)
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tommysb
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Re: F7P swap sump questions... And curious spring.

Post by tommysb » 28 Jun 2009 09:51 pm

Cheers. I couldn't see a logical reason why cutting it down would do any harm, but thought i'd better be cautious as I'm no expert on these things!

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Re: F7P swap sump questions... And curious spring.

Post by smchris » 10 Dec 2012 11:07 am

I realize this is an old thread but any info would be great on the windage tray. The bottom end did fail on my Clio engine and we've just taken the sump off the old engine.. and i noticed the windage tray wasn't even there? thus I've taken it out of my new altogether aswell. thinking about it over night, could this have aided in the death of my previous engine?

hopefully putting the new engine back in this weekend, so it would be good to know before then if possible! thanks
1989 Volvo 340dl...F7p :)
1989 Volvo 340dl-welded and lowww :P - Sold :(

http://www.carsandcoolstuff.com- a poky little motoring site about performance cars, drifting, track days, gadgets and software... ooo yea and my little volvo drifter too :)

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Re: F7P swap sump questions... And curious spring.

Post by Chris_C » 10 Dec 2012 11:58 am

From memory, we transferred the 1.7 oil pump on mine so that it sat in a "more suitable for a front/back oriented red application".

Get an oil pressure gauge fitted too, I've noticed my drops about a bar around some corners when being *very* keen, I'd have thought that the changing direction thing would be worse for the engine than the drifting I've seen in videos though?

Found a picture, might be worth a compare for you in case I am talking out my backside as normal
Image
'89(G) 340 GLE B172k
'03 S60 D5 SE, '91 (J) MX5, 1954 Cyclemaster
Ex:
'89(F) 340 GL F7R (ex B172k) - Fake -> SBKV 300 Runner Up 08, 12; '91(H) 340 GL B14.4E - Kar; '88(F) 360 GLT B200E - Jet -> BKV 300 Runner Up 09; '89(G) 360 GLT B200E - Beast

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smchris
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Re: F7P swap sump questions... And curious spring.

Post by smchris » 10 Dec 2012 12:09 pm

so thats a 1.7 oil pump in your pic? it look like it would sit lower and more central in the sump compared to the Renault one. This is why i got thinking. it probably wouldnt be to bad but there might be a split second or a few seconds where the pump isnt pulling up any oil?? over a period of time this might have an effect. I believe the f7p that was in mine originally was put in around 2009 or 2010..with no windage tray. sumps on the new block already on so it'll be more work but what are your thoughts chris?
1989 Volvo 340dl...F7p :)
1989 Volvo 340dl-welded and lowww :P - Sold :(

http://www.carsandcoolstuff.com- a poky little motoring site about performance cars, drifting, track days, gadgets and software... ooo yea and my little volvo drifter too :)

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Chris_C
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Re: F7P swap sump questions... And curious spring.

Post by Chris_C » 10 Dec 2012 01:17 pm

The fact I see around a bar of pressure drop at times when cornering (yes, a passenger did spot it, I normally look where I'm going on corners, etc) I think the FWD to RWD ness of it all is a problem that no one has really thought about. It's why I wanted to have everything from a 1.7 on mine, even to the extent I can't remember if that is a photo from before or after it was changed, if it was changed, if that makes sense? It may have been I came up with the idea after seeing the gauge readings and it's been something I've been meaning to do :oops: (This is why I normally write things down, I have a useless memory)

Your last problem sounded to me like an oil starve, but it could be that from several different things, my corset had a load of hydraulic tappets seize from oil starvation as it hadn't had oil changes or services that it should have before I got it, causing black sludge to build up and block all the oilways.

In my mind, it's not certain that this is the cause of what happened on your old engine, but I would be taking every precaution to make sure it wasn't this that kills the next one. Do you have a 1.7 vs clio pump to compare? I would cut literally nothing out the 1.7 sump and make the pickup fit it, that sump was designed for use in RWD where the oil is sloshing in different directions to the FWD setup.
'89(G) 340 GLE B172k
'03 S60 D5 SE, '91 (J) MX5, 1954 Cyclemaster
Ex:
'89(F) 340 GL F7R (ex B172k) - Fake -> SBKV 300 Runner Up 08, 12; '91(H) 340 GL B14.4E - Kar; '88(F) 360 GLT B200E - Jet -> BKV 300 Runner Up 09; '89(G) 360 GLT B200E - Beast

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smchris
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Re: F7P swap sump questions... And curious spring.

Post by smchris » 10 Dec 2012 03:00 pm

yea its not something you'd think about normally, fairplay if you have time to check guages in corners! lol yea theres also very steep hill through wroughton to avebury near here which puts the car at such an angle there probabally wouldn't be any oil at the top near the pump..but then logically not even the windage tray couldn't prevent that?? i think that pic you posted is afterwards that definitely looks a bit a different to mine, and notably longer.

Unfortunately i dont have a volvo 1.7 block lieing around

yea i tried a hydraulic lifter fluid stuff and it made no difference, im going to see if there is anything salvageable from the old block, especially the cylinder head,.I've yet to take it apart
1989 Volvo 340dl...F7p :)
1989 Volvo 340dl-welded and lowww :P - Sold :(

http://www.carsandcoolstuff.com- a poky little motoring site about performance cars, drifting, track days, gadgets and software... ooo yea and my little volvo drifter too :)

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Chris_C
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Re: F7P swap sump questions... And curious spring.

Post by Chris_C » 10 Dec 2012 03:25 pm

Fire up the green book (on here, go to Technical resources & information, Green Books, Engine, B172k Download)

PDF Page 47, green book page 46: Section P, Image for P1.

You can see the dipstick tube which I hadn't fitted at the time, but that confirms I'm running a B172k pickup for the oil pump and have been since the block was put together. I'd be very interested to see a photo of a Clio/19/Megane one and see if they are different or not. The casting for the pickup is identical between my photo and the green book, the main pump housing casting looks the same but the fixing bolts are in a different location? Not that it matters, it's a case of what fits to the block casting obviously.

FWIW, I'd be at least checking your pickup is the same as that one and not modifying the sump at all.

Also explains the mystical spring mentioned above in Group 22, PDF page 44, GB p43. Interesting read for those with a "want to know how the system works" mindset.
'89(G) 340 GLE B172k
'03 S60 D5 SE, '91 (J) MX5, 1954 Cyclemaster
Ex:
'89(F) 340 GL F7R (ex B172k) - Fake -> SBKV 300 Runner Up 08, 12; '91(H) 340 GL B14.4E - Kar; '88(F) 360 GLT B200E - Jet -> BKV 300 Runner Up 09; '89(G) 360 GLT B200E - Beast

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smchris
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Re: F7P swap sump questions... And curious spring.

Post by smchris » 11 Dec 2012 10:50 am

I meant to have a look at this last night but fell asleep instead..:/ lol I will tonight and let you know, I've thought about it a lot, it was in there in the first place for a reason so it would be a bit stupid to take it out! (i.e. me)

when I get it off I'll take a picture of the the pump in mine and we can compare them..bloody xmas is putting a stopper on things atm!
1989 Volvo 340dl...F7p :)
1989 Volvo 340dl-welded and lowww :P - Sold :(

http://www.carsandcoolstuff.com- a poky little motoring site about performance cars, drifting, track days, gadgets and software... ooo yea and my little volvo drifter too :)

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Re: F7P swap sump questions... And curious spring.

Post by 340GLT » 08 Jan 2013 05:44 pm

Chris & Chris, the oil pumps are all the same externally, as for the windage tray, if you cut the corner off it it works in the volvo sump, im 99% sure Chris C sure that i fitted a windage tray to yours.
The only thing that differs between the pickups is the small strainer at the bottom.
Adam
F559 LFE - 340R 2.0 16v
C208 CTR - 340 1.8 16v
D300 LBO - 360 GLT 3 Door Turbo project!! (and restoration)
F706 RBX - 350R in process!!!

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Re: F7P swap sump questions... And curious spring.

Post by Chris_C » 09 Jan 2013 12:32 am

Thanks for the clarification Adam!

So... does this mean you are back for a prolonged period?
'89(G) 340 GLE B172k
'03 S60 D5 SE, '91 (J) MX5, 1954 Cyclemaster
Ex:
'89(F) 340 GL F7R (ex B172k) - Fake -> SBKV 300 Runner Up 08, 12; '91(H) 340 GL B14.4E - Kar; '88(F) 360 GLT B200E - Jet -> BKV 300 Runner Up 09; '89(G) 360 GLT B200E - Beast

scamparoo
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Re: F7P swap sump questions... And curious spring.

Post by scamparoo » 13 Jan 2013 08:02 pm

What starter motor do I need to run in my f7p, as my 1.4 won't engage?

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