German 360 (16v project)

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jtbo
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Re: German 360

Post by jtbo » 22 Mar 2009 07:22 pm

We have those stupid laws here too, also insurance is far from sensible sm2

From all my cars, I think 360 is one that I tend to care most, it is actually in dry dark place :mrgreen:

Here it is hard to spot cars older than 30 years being used on road as our enviroment likes to accelerate corrosion quite badly.

Here it is also possible to get away with some mods that should require some papers, they just ignore them or can't spot them, springs are one of those, one can always say that it was installed before certain date and if MOT men believes all is good :lol:
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Cutler
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Re: German 360

Post by Cutler » 23 Mar 2009 12:58 am

Ok, as I have no clue what so ever about enginetuning we need to get into detail about this:

I could get 2 different 2.3l engines right now:

1:

http://cgi.ebay.de/Volvo-240-242-244-24 ... dZViewItem

2 (in my hometown):

http://cgi.ebay.de/MOTOR-VOLVO-740-940- ... dZViewItem

as far as I understood so far both would be a straight fit. but I dont see where this would get me as they've the same power as my 2.0 (yeah, now you see how bad my knowledge is).
i've read something about the b230f being upgraded to 2.5l with some strange "penta" stuff. you already mentioned that. whats up with that? details please sm7


EDIT:

ok, the b230 based 2.5l penta engines came with a different crankshaft to get longer stroke...so just swapping the crank on the 2.3 to get 2.5l and 150bhp? that would be enough for me and the TÜV ;)

EDIT #2:

so basicly its:
So all you really need is the crank, pistions, and a 16v head from a penta and you can build one KILLER B230... err... B250 I guess.
8v should still work i guess?
Sideways @ flat 2 the mat forever!

Rally-gious!

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jtbo
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Re: German 360

Post by jtbo » 23 Mar 2009 04:11 am

Penta crank is from marine engine, you should note that there are few different blocks, B23 is older type, then there are B230 older and B230 newer, difference was with main bearings so crank need to be for appropriate engine version. Also at least in finland Penta cranks are about 1000 euros.

Marine engines begin with AQ code, something like AQ171.

I think you could go with B230F, it is injection engine with electrical fuel injection and you would need to swap oil pan and oil pickup from your current motor + engine mounts. Oh yes, if it had distributor at back of engine it won't fit to 360 without cuttin heater box or relocating distributor to engine block, there should be place in block, if one is lucky there is also needed gear in auxiliary shaft, but of course you could swap auxiliary shaft too.

Not sure about starter, that might be different and alternator could be on wrong side causing some work with wiring or then relocation of alternator, not sure if some threads need to be made.

Waterpump is also something you need to switch over from 360, I believe.

So it is 'straight' swap, needs some work, nothing impossible though and would provide nicer drive.

With B23 there are some differences in parts so it could be you would need to source 360 B19 to switch them, however I'm not 100% sure if that is really needed as I don't remember what exact parts were different :oops:
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bodejodel
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Re: German 360

Post by bodejodel » 24 Mar 2009 12:07 am

The B230FB is the 8v you should look for. It has 135 ps and 190 Nm of torque. Quita a nice upgrade and it is almost a straight fit.
These engines came (in Holland) in the 1990-1995 N/A 940's.
There's also a B234F (2.3 16v) which has 155/159 ps and 205/210 Nm (740 GLE/GLT)
Jeroen
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jtbo
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Re: German 360

Post by jtbo » 24 Mar 2009 09:01 pm

Sorry from OT, but I thought that I as from you Cutler as you are from Germany.

I know that Volkswagen LT got 1E engine, that is gasoline version of 6 cylinder diesel engine that was also in d6 Volvo, but are those any common in Germany and is prices how high?

Would make nice swap to my 240 with turbo or two :mrgreen:
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Cutler
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Re: German 360

Post by Cutler » 24 Mar 2009 10:34 pm

Are you talking about this:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/VW_LT

???

If so, I have no clue. Actually I never saw one runnig on gasoline as far as I can remeber...but I wasn't consciously looking out for them anyways.
Normaly cars in that size will always be diesel in Germany.

As I've read from the article above, the secound generation also came with a 2,3 Liter Ottomotor from Mercedes-Benz with 105 kW (143 PS). But as no one bought it, it was discontinued soon. So they have to be rare.

Generation 3 only comes with diesel.

Gen 1 had the 2,4l gasoline engine wtih 66 kW (90 PS) and later 69 kW (94 PS).

You can get yourself an overview on:

www.autoscout.de

and

mobile.de

I had a quick look, under 20 Gen 1 LT's with gasoline engine on offer.

Check ebay for single engine prices and general availability. But the best source for rare parts and knowledge, regardless for which car, is always a specialised forum 340pw
Sideways @ flat 2 the mat forever!

Rally-gious!

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Cutler
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Re: German 360

Post by Cutler » 25 Mar 2009 09:09 pm

Got myselft a nice B234F today, 141000 km. Serious hardware :wink:

I'll keep you updatet on the projekt but it'll take some time...there won't be fast progress.
Sideways @ flat 2 the mat forever!

Rally-gious!

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jtbo
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Re: German 360

Post by jtbo » 26 Mar 2009 04:27 pm

Cutler wrote:Got myselft a nice B234F today, 141000 km. Serious hardware :wink:

I'll keep you updatet on the projekt but it'll take some time...there won't be fast progress.
Thanks from earlier info, you have so many of them there, well compared to Finland that is :mrgreen:

Congrats from new motor, looking forward of updates of your project, it can't be as slow as mine :lol:
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Cutler
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Re: German 360 (16v project)

Post by Cutler » 02 Apr 2009 09:22 pm

ok, i just couldn't help myself and had to start...this car needs to see some road again so it's time to get to work!
;)

first i ripped the useless balance shafts from the b234f and sealed the holes (idea stolen from http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthrea ... ost2177482). lets hope it keeps the oil in.

Image

Image

but getting out the engine is a pain in the ass. took me half a day to figure out that the complete driveshaft with gearbox needs to be pulled back...wtf?
and now i cant get it back far enough becaus this f*ucking peace of shit gearbox mount won't come off the car!

Image

i can tighten it and also get it loose but even after a billion turns the bolt is still in....huh....have...to....calm...down...

whats the trick???

random pic:

Image
Sideways @ flat 2 the mat forever!

Rally-gious!

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jtbo
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Re: German 360 (16v project)

Post by jtbo » 02 Apr 2009 09:40 pm

Image

Image
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Cutler
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Re: German 360 (16v project)

Post by Cutler » 02 Apr 2009 10:43 pm

well, that helps at least a bit as i now know whats going on inside the torque tube . thanks for posting.

my basic idea to get the clutch housing off the enginge, and with that the propeller shaft out of the crank, was to pull the whole crap back in one piece. instead of taking everything out alone.

and it works but the right side gearbox mount is in my way (maybe i'll just lower the gearbox so i can pull it back under the mount...hope the propeller shaft hasn't seen any damage yet). and i have no clue how to get it off.

however, the next rally is up on fr and sat so the volvo has to wait now.
Sideways @ flat 2 the mat forever!

Rally-gious!

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Cutler
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Re: German 360 (16v project)

Post by Cutler » 06 Apr 2009 11:37 pm

Ok, my plan worked out and i was able to lift the engine out today.

ripped everything needed from it and took a look under the 16v sump. seems like the oil intake pipe of the pump just has to be shortened to fit the 360 sump. water pump, fly wheel and crank pulley will be swapped, as well es the dynamo with custom mount. the biggest task of the whole conversion, besides the wireing, will be getting the engine-mount adapters fabricated spot on.

and tons of little things to do as well...man that will take some time :(

still no decision whether or not to use bike carbs...as i have the loom but no ecu right now the option is still open.

however, some pics of the weekends event for the moment:

ImageImage Image Image Image Image Image Image Image Image Image
Sideways @ flat 2 the mat forever!

Rally-gious!

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foggyjames
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Re: German 360 (16v project)

Post by foggyjames » 20 Apr 2009 03:04 am

Bump.

What will the TUV guy allow? Bike carbs, 2.3 swap, exhaust with header/manifold...these are all good things. I'm sure he won't notice engine internals, but the above alone will give you ~200bhp without turbocharging.

Also...155bhp is the B200FT (i.e. 2.0). The 2.3 (B230FT had 165 in early version, and 175bhp in later years. All the 'F' engines were held back by emissions gear.

cheers

James
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Cutler
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Re: German 360 (16v project)

Post by Cutler » 20 Apr 2009 12:10 pm

i'm not sure whether you are on track with my project. i've already got myselft a 16v engine and currently work on the engine mounts. so no turbo for this car. that might also come in handy in terms of driveline durability as i want to keep the car few years and not as a track day car in the first place.
What will the TUV guy allow?
well, that pretty much comes down to contacts...someones gotta know someone who knows someone ;)

why is this project going so slow? well, i'm not a mechanic or something and have never done anything like this project before. it's all learning by doing and i need to read tons of forum's and stuff on every step. and i dont have time to work on it every day.
i'm planing to get the engine in this or next week. than we'll see whats up with the bike carbs.
Also...155bhp is the B200FT (i.e. 2.0). The 2.3 (B230FT had 165 in early version, and 175bhp in later years.
thought they were all 155 in the beginning and 165 later...thanks for the education!
Sideways @ flat 2 the mat forever!

Rally-gious!

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bodejodel
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Re: German 360 (16v project)

Post by bodejodel » 20 Apr 2009 12:52 pm

Great engine! Be sure to replace the oil pump pully bolt, they are known to snap and kill the whole engine.

I will be watching this topic because this is the same engine i want to put in my 360!
Jeroen
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