Climate taxes

[nomashedswede]

how ever EU is like old Soviet Union when it comes to big lines, they force everyone to follow same path, no matter if it would destroy some country's economy.

Now that I agree with completely ! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bM2Ql3wOGcU

[sven360]

I've said it before and I'll say it again,there is no thing as global warming.

Even those who supported such a notion have been forced to concede that it has now become climate change

I consider myself a neutral in this situation as I'm it concerns me not one bit if it gets warmer or colder-man will adjust as he has since the dawn of time.
I will simply toss another log on the stove

It troubles me,however,that the yoof of today who are apparently better educated than myself can swallow propaganda hook line and sinker.
Should all be forced to watch Citizen Smith IMHO

A small time spent researching the www will reveal that although it may not be a conspiracy persay,at best someone's trying to pull the wool over our eyes.I could post link after link pulling to bits certain scientific revelations which tend to come out as the next round of funding appears to be on the horizon.

This is funny http://web.mac.com/sinfonia1/Global_War ... shmen.html

Shouldn't expect owt else from good ol' Gordy the well known fiscal genius

[nvdw]

MMGW-discussions won't answer your initial question however

Fuel efficiency is directly related to CO2 emissions: 1 liter of petrol equals 2387.5 g of CO2*. My best guess for a B200K is 8,0 l/100 km which translates to 191 g/km. Problem is, CO2 emissions weren't calculated until the official EU consumption cycle used today. Your 360 has been homologated according to a cycle with a constant 90 km/h, 120 km/h and a city cycle. I've been looking for some brochures but it isn't mentioned there either. The other niggle is: will the Finnish DVLA accept your calculation, even if it's backed by reasonable statistics?

* source: http://www.transport.vgtu.lt/upload/tif ... ackoit.pdf (yes that's a pdf alert)

[macplaxton]

Living in the Ireland, where they introduced an emissions based tax system since 1st July 2008, I'll make comment on what they do here, which may be no use whatsoever to the OP...

Any NEW car registered after 1st July 2008 will a) Be subject to Vehicle Registration Tax at a rate depending on the emissions band it is in x Open Market Selling Price (OMSP). This can be between 14% - 36% x what the Revenue office thinks the car is worth (and this has a "floor rate" (i.e. minimum value) of €2000).

The car is then subject to annual motor tax which also is dependent on the emissions band the car is in. (Band A=€104 to Band G=€2100)

If a car is registered in Ireland before 1st July 2008, the annual motor tax would be based on engine capicity in cc bands from sub-1000cc and in 100cc steps to over-3000cc. This would be in the range €172-€1556

The difference comes with how imports are treated, as "registration date" for these purposes is "the date of first registration in Ireland."

If I import a pre-2008 car the VRT calculation would still be done on an CO2 basis, but the motor tax will be on a cc basis.

For example, if I were to import a 1982 Volvo 343DL Auto, the car would be subject to 36% VRT (based on the floor rate of €2000), which would be €720. Then it would be subject to annual motor tax of €333. A total of €1053 (The old VRT system was a mix of engine size and OMSP subject to a minimum charge of €315).

Logic would have suggested that pre-2008 cars would be subject in whole to the old arrangements based on the vehicle's first worldwide registration date. Sadly that was not to be the case. Fortunately on the bright side, we have a rolling 30 year-old vehicle concession that means vehicles over 30 years-old pay a fixed rate of €50 VRT regardless of value or engine capacity or emissions; annual motor tax of €46 and exemption from National Car Testing Scheme (MOT)

The Revenue charges the 36% rate to cars either with band G emissions OR no satisfactory evidence of emissions. If the vehicle was registered post-Mar 2001, the the UK V5C emissions figure is accepted. Go back a little bit further and you have patchy data and back a little further still and you have none. However, the Revenue takes on board quite a range of documentation found HERE. Of interest is:

Second-hand Vehicles manufactured prior to 1997

In certain instances the level of CO2 emissions may not be available for vehicles manufactured prior to 1997. In such instances, if details of the fuel consumption of the vehicle are available - the combined figure derived from an average of urban and extra-urban figures (obtained from any of the Revenue approved sources only), the level of CO2 for the vehicle may be calculated using the formulae below.

It should be noted that all calculations using the formulae below must be carried out by the declarant in advance of the presentation of the vehicle at a Vehicle Registration Office (VRO).

1. Metric Calculations:
1. where fuel consumption is shown as litres per 100km:

CO2 emissions = fuel consumption X 23.20

Example
If the consumption is shown as 5.8 l/100km then 5.8 X 23.20 = CO2 emissions of 134.56 or 135

I did have someone come to me trying to find emissions data for a 1998 Reliant Robin, as his local Revenue Vehicle Registration Office wanted to charge him €720 for the pleasure of bringing in a vehicle from Northern Ireland . I sent him some mpg figures (unofficial manufacturer's data), but my main argument was that it wasn't a car, but a tricycle and no official fuel consumption figures existed because the vehicle type was never subject to fuel consumption tests. After appeal, they decided it wasn't an EU M1 type vehicle and calculated tax at the motorcycle rate which gave the owner a rebate of €600.

All this registration tax is a con. The Netherlands suffers from it too (BPM?). You really don't realise how cheap it is to run a motor car in the UK...

What the OP needs to try and do is lobby his local political representative to amend any mad CO2-tax bill to incorporate a workable scheme for older cars where the data doesn't exist, or move.

[jtbo]

I think it is no use, no matter what they will force some ridiculous taxes now, they got bright idea to reduce co2 emissions 80% and their new religious meeting coming up they will sign this for sure:
http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress. ... n-2009.pdf (that is new climate threaty that your countries will sign too, better read it even it is heavy read, there will be huge trouble coming to car enthusiasts in future)

Welcome new world order of totalitarianism and control, no more 360 driving allowed in 10 years while this madness keeps going, who knows if there will be some armed events because of this all (that is probably why they are working total ban of guns so hard).

I doubt that it would do any good even if there would be official quote of CO2 production of 360, nothing self calculated is certainly not to be accepted as they probably don't agree that CO2 is tied to fuel consumption, madness I know, but what else is left in this world of doom?

[Speedy88]

Heh, if this happens V3M should try and get on the news, block up the M40 or something

[volvosneverdie]

Heh, if this happens V3M should try and get on the news, block up the M40 or something

I dont think we have the manpower to block a slip road.

[whiskeyonesix]

I'm not sure... Everytime I go out, I seem to hold up traffic!


*there's a joke in the there somewhere - just don't ask me to explain it, it's 6am monday morning here, and I havent had my third cup of coffee yet...

[nvdw]

as they probably don't agree that CO2 is tied to fuel consumption

Then kick their useless backsides because IT IS.

[jtbo]

I know it is, but they are quite uninterested from real facts, that naturally changes if there is chance to milk some money out from it

I have been thinking half seriously about moving to some other country, however such thing is not cheap and certainly not very simple task, but I really would not like to be any part of this country at current rate.

[Ride_on]

I've said it before and I'll say it again,there is no thing as global warming.

Even those who supported such a notion have been forced to concede that it has now become climate change

I consider myself a neutral in this situation as I'm it concerns me not one bit if it gets warmer or colder-man will adjust as he has since the dawn of time.
I will simply toss another log on the stove

It troubles me,however,that the yoof of today who are apparently better educated than myself can swallow propaganda hook line and sinker.
Should all be forced to watch Citizen Smith IMHO

A small time spent researching the www will reveal that although it may not be a conspiracy persay,at best someone's trying to pull the wool over our eyes.I could post link after link pulling to bits certain scientific revelations which tend to come out as the next round of funding appears to be on the horizon.

Well I am old enough to remember Citizen Smith, and I happen to think that the ones pulling the wool over, are the ones that are saying that the other side is trying to pull the wool over our eyes (figure that out!). As I said the sides are science and industry only, politicians are just making use of it. I have read the science side and see only the strive for accuracy and truth, the whole of science is orientated around that.

It does worry me greatly that their tactics have worked and supposedly sensible people, including many respected colleagues and friends have been taken in,.. it has become an issue of faith. As no individual can possibly hold a proper grasp of all the data, all we can do is chose our side. Strangely faith is the one thing science cannot claim to answer, or more commonly 'issues of morality'.

Industry tries to use our natural hatred of politicians to make us believe in a conspiracy theory and digs up all sorts of contradictory evidence to 'prove' it.

No scientists have conceded anything on GW except that their estimates are generally underestimates and have been proven so time and time again. They might have moved away from the GW marketing as it is confusing people, as you have clearly demonstrated, that many think its about warmer or even colder weather. It is not, you will not notice the average change, what you will notice is water or refugees at your door, or difficulty in growing food etc etc. You may get some unusually severe weather, you may not.

Whatever your view about GW, you have to answer the question..what level of CO2 (or any other man made change) in the environment will cause a significant change? Can you find any scientist that will say 'any' level is fine, or say 4C increase is ok, I really doubt it, the basic physics is clear the ney-sayers are quibbling over a few details, there is no evidence of any feedback systems that maintain equilibrium.

[jtbo]

Hmm, as long as I can remember they have made new apartment areas to previously sea covered areas in here, sea withdraws several centimeters per year, so it is really hard to understand how that could be result of sea level rising?

I don't think that temperature rise because of CO2 has never been proofed, it is assumed that co2 causes rise in temperatures as temperatures have gone up after last small ice age and because temperature has gone up, but most studies show that co2 lags behind temperature by hundreds of years, also how temperature can go down while co2 goes up if co2 causes temperature to rise?

Religion did loose it's edge, so they created new religion.

Why nobody is not acting something really important like shitload of plastic trash in seas? Or plastic in general? That is realistic trouble in hand, climate will not go berserk with more co2 in there, it has not gone berserk even before when there has been lot more co2, it is just cycling it cycles.

When green movement starts to control how much I can travel, how I can live and where and specially what kind of car I am allowed to drive, then they step over line and will face armed resistance for sure, I rather die fighting than live my life in small box being forced to live like someone else's fantasy. If it means war, then it is war, simple as that, freedom is my way, socialism is something that I will not take.

[Ride_on]

I can't deny putting rubbish in the sea is not a good thing, but the environment can mostly repairs itself on human timescales for local pollution accidents. If you understand global warming the damage cannot been seen clearly until its too late, although efforts have been made to make measurements, if they don't dot all the 'i's and cross the 't's you will discount it.

You can prove CO2 temperature rise in the lab, higher concentrations of CO2 insulates more than 'normal' mixtures. There is many records in trees and ice and so, on but your industry sources will find some errors in it and discount it. There is already a war between science and polluting industry, I know which one I trust.

Anyway the reason noone acted previously to the environment was that politicians and people prefer to be rich and buy lots of goods, as they still do now and are still resisting any big decisions that mean real change. For instance it has been possible to build a 100mpg petrol car for the last 10 years but for various reasons they didn't push it. For the same reasons they build houses without sewage capacity and in flood plains, when there is plenty of more suitable land in most countries, even UK. It takes a while for this stuff to sink in to politicians heads and for them to resist the influence of those with the money to fund their voting campaigns, and for the general public to start to accept what they are hearing. For me it seem like only last few years, but actually they have done many small things for 10 or 20 years to clean up the enviroment as evidence arises. Having a pre-unleaded UK 360 I was used to loads of torque, the later 360s where ruined by this change in the UK, but I am not prepared to take up arms to fight against it, in fact lead free was the way to go (I can still have the torque with a little more cost), its just a pity they have exempted so many usages in current industry.

Personally I am more angry about the banking bailouts and widescale corruption allowing the banks to continue as before, unfortunately most people don't understand the problem or current 'solutions'. It will play out eventually, or things will get so bad that people will revolt whether they understand or not.

[sven360]

OK,let's assume all the scientists who agree with GW are correct.

Jani who owns a vehicle which produces CO2 is to be punished because he is a bad man and hasn't hugged enough trees.

Well what is one to do about these sorts of situations.........
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 917579.ece#


I remember reading this a while back and the same week there was an article regarding the worlds biggest factors in producing CO2.

No 1 was Electricity production
No2 Deforestation.....intrestingly enough when our little chums fell the centuries old hardwoods they don't sell it or make furniture or anything positive.
No they burn it.Kinda like removing a lung and chain smoking B&H for a fortnight.

So our little farming friends get their ox and plough their fields and grow beansprouts or whatever.
Well they do for a yr. until the rainy season when all the top soil that used to be retained by the mighty tree roots is washed away into the sea alterring the enviroment oncemore.So what is the civilised world to do????
That's right hire the biggest plane you can find fill it with rice etc,fly it half way round the world and hurl the contents out the window.


I could spout this $hit for ever and a day.
Point is this, CO is used in western Europe as stealth tax pure and simple it matters not a jot if every vehicle was removed from the roads of W Europe for a decade.The crux of the matter lies elsewhere,whether politicians are up to the challenge of foreign policy is IMHO highly unlikely.

I for one never even give it a thought when I bark one of my vehicles up.
What others do is up to them.

[nomashedswede]

I remember reading this a while back and the same week there was an article regarding the worlds biggest factors in producing CO2.

No 1 was Electricity production
No2 Deforestation.....intrestingly enough when our little chums fell the centuries old hardwoods they don't sell it or make furniture or anything positive.
No they burn it.Kinda like removing a lung and chain smoking B&H for a fortnight.

So our little farming friends get their ox and plough their fields and grow beansprouts or whatever.
Well they do for a yr. until the rainy season when all the top soil that used to be retained by the mighty tree roots is washed away into the sea alterring the enviroment oncemore.So what is the civilised world to do????
That's right hire the biggest plane you can find fill it with rice etc,fly it half way round the world and hurl the contents out the window.


I could spout this $hit for ever and a day.
Point is this, CO is used in western Europe as stealth tax pure and simple it matters not a jot if every vehicle was removed from the roads of W Europe for a decade.The crux of the matter lies elsewhere,whether politicians are up to the challenge of foreign policy is IMHO highly unlikely.

Can`t argue with any of this - but the whole crux of this is population growth. Consider ;

1960 - World Pop, approx. 3 billion - 1 billion in the "developed, industrial" and 2 billion in the "developing"

2009 - World Pop. approx 7.5 billion - 1.4 billion in the "developed,Industrial" and 6.1 in the "developing" - that`s an awful lot of aspiring fridge owners, and that`s exactly what the "industrial" world sees - customers and capital growth, and hang the consequences - after all, if you`ve got enough money, you`ll be the last to suffer - politicians and big business, together in the same bed, and everybody else can just get f****d !