The £2,000 car

[jtbo]

Cuba, Mexico, Argentina, just to see how old cars are preserved and used everyday without any parts supply, well Argentina because of food.

Poland is good choice too, them craftmanship is just so good, also my collegue claims that beer is good in that area, but I don't know about such things

[Chris_C]

Who understood last night's plot?

I thought I did every few minutes... then wasn't sure again when the next thing happened! Certainly enjoyed it though, and looking forward to see what happens!

[workshopmanualman]

Argentina would do it for me as well, if only for the food. I used to go to America and Canada just to sample their breakfasts. Long way to go for breakfast, but the green chilli sauce in New Mexico is outstanding.

Last night's plot - seemed to be several going at once [bit like this thread!]. Bolls being found, corruption in the Met, and some odd time traveller who understands medicine. A bit like a police version of Doctor Who then? Bet they make it up as they go along. Fine by me.

I was in Southampton the other day - must say you have some fine restaurants, and the people are very friendly.

Car failed the MoT: rough wheelbearing and a directional tyre fitted on the wrong side. That was it, which isn't bad for a 20 year old car. However, the MoT centre were the ones that serviced the car 2 months ago, and the tyre is meant to be a unidirectional spare. To my mind the car hasn't failed, but the bloomin' garage has. UK garages eh, dontcha love 'em?

[workshopmanualman]

Taken from the budget today: "From next month motorists to get £2,000 discount on new cars if they trade in cars older than 10 years - this will remain in place until March 2010."

What this means for the older cars that we currently own I do not know - but all of a sudden that old 340 you have, with an MoT about to run out and no chance of getting a new one due to having a rotten shell, will gift you £2k towards a new car. I can't say I'm mad keen; I drive the 360 'cause I want to spend my money on other toys, not finance and depreciation. My wife buys new cars, and the money we lose on them is horrific. My 360 cost £500 [silly me got into a bidding war...] but has now passed the second MoT under my care. The last MoT it passed with no work, this time a front wheel bearing is marginal and needs replacing. No biggie. Bangernomics makes more sense to me than a £2k trade-in scheme. Unfortunately the world only goes around if powered by finance schemes it would appear. Madness.

[volvosneverdie]

Taken from the budget today: "From next month motorists to get £2,000 discount on new cars if they trade in cars older than 10 years - this will remain in place until March 2010."

What this means for the older cars that we currently own I do not know - but all of a sudden that old 340 you have, with an MoT about to run out and no chance of getting a new one due to having a rotten shell, will gift you £2k towards a new car. I can't say I'm mad keen; I drive the 360 'cause I want to spend my money on other toys, not finance and depreciation. My wife buys new cars, and the money we lose on them is horrific. My 360 cost £500 [silly me got into a bidding war...] but has now passed the second MoT under my care. The last MoT it passed with no work, this time a front wheel bearing is marginal and needs replacing. No biggie. Bangernomics makes more sense to me than a £2k trade-in scheme. Unfortunately the world only goes around if powered by finance schemes it would appear. Madness.

£2000 pounds of a new car equates to what?
1%?
.5%?
Off he sticker price?
Which any dealer knocks off anyway if youve got the balls to demand it. More if youve got the stomach to play through the dealer 'i'll ask my boss, wait here a minute, thats the best i can do, ok im leaving, oh ok i'll knock anoth three grand off' pantomime.
Now theyve just got a hard and fast botton line.
'Government policy you see mate. two grand off is the best I can do.'

Apr on finance is what? 17.5%? 19%? if youre lucky.
So its not even going to cover the intrest on your payments for the first year.

And as soon as you drive it out of the showroom its going to depreciate by £3000 anyway.


Just like the cut in VAT we had, the difference it makes in the real world is miniscule.

[jtbo]

I thought that in financial crisis situation it is not good to boost economy by pumping imagination money on market and this is just what they do as people will take more loan in unstable situation and soon they banks face a lot of people who can't pay their debt because of decreasing number of jobs.

Are they trying to make few banks to collapse so that they could apply some new laws to remove even more freedom of people?

[volvosneverdie]

I thought that in financial crisis situation it is not good to boost economy by pumping imagination money on market and this is just what they do as people will take more loan in unstable situation and soon they banks face a lot of people who can't pay their debt because of decreasing number of jobs.

Are they trying to make few banks to collapse so that they could apply some new laws to remove even more freedom of people?

The recesion means nobodys spending.
Which means banks arnt lending.
Which means nobodys spending.
put a sale on, more people spend.
High Streets across the land are covered in giant SALE signs.

Think the government is just trying to get people spending/banks lending again really.
In this case via the motor industry.
But also with these terrible terrible 'buy 50% of a house and pay rent on the other half, while also paying a mortgage obn the other half' first time buyer, no deposit schemes
The world RUNs on credit im affraid.

Its when the lending stops that everything starts to go wrong.
As we've seen.

[workshopmanualman]

£2k is a chunk off something like a £6k Fiat Panda; 30% by my maths. Cheaper than a used item.... 19% finance? Nah, you'd bung it on the mortgage at 1% or a credit card at 0% balance transfer. How is this meant to solve the financial meltdown I have no idea? As for getting that kind of discount from a dealer like Honda or Mercedes, no chance. Sir Sugar may struggle there. You may well get 40% off a Citroen or Renault without a p.ex anyway, but would you even walk into one of their dealerships? Possibly not.

Imagine the legions of old car owners; over 50, mortgage minimal, little debt. Fancy a treat? That old car is worth £2k you know, and the MoT is due, as is a service. Apparently in Germany this is very much what is happening. As of today that is what is happening here. And who owns the nicest cars? People like me or you who use them every day, whatever the weather, or the little old grannies that have them tucked away in a garage for occassional use? The 30,000 mile minters. And that cut-off date is very, very clever. Your old car is worth £2k p.ex until next march only, after that back to peanuts. That's almost a year of nagging. Already my wife has sent me a text just saying "part exchange!"

As for depreciation on such a scenario? Doesn't matter. Aunt Nell will keep the car until she dies.

The loss of the bog standard 300 series, or the old 1.6 Sierras and suchlike, isn't really a blip on the classic scene as these were bread and butter cars even back in the day. But Mk 1 Golf Gti's etc. would be, which is exactly the case abroad. Some of the cars being scrapped are by all accounts mint collectables, and that is a real shame. So we swop our GLT's and GTi's for some crummy Euro box [or even Hyundai type thingies] with a 950cc 3 cylinder engine and electric steering? Hmmm.

[volvosneverdie]

True enough dude.
I was looking at it from a personal level.
On finance.
at a 15-20 grand car.

Makes more sense on a low value brand new car.

[workshopmanualman]

With a dealer discount, plus this new £2k you could be in a Fiat Panda or such for £4k, possibly even on 0% finance. From what I've read, above about £10k nobody is that interested - as you say, you could negotiate that kind of deal anyway. And in the real world, if you drive a £400 bangernomics car, are you really in the market for a £20k BMW, or £60 Porsche? Possibly not. But a £400 car to a new £5k car isn't that big a move really, especially as you're looking at people with minimal outstanding finance, who've probably not owned a new car since their retirement 10 to 20 years ago. Or a spotty oik who couldn't care less about owing a wad of cash so long as it means he's in with a chance with the girls once he has a new car....

The loss of our £400 cars wouldn't really be that big a deal - even from this board, a lot of them go to scrap come MoT time and we're the keen ones. This scheme would just bring forward 3 or 4 years of natural wastage is all. But where it seems to strike home is the loss of the mint collectable ones. £3k to £4k, 20 year old mint cars are apparently finding their way into dealerships; dealers that have no interest in them. These cars are the equivalent of the Mk 1 Escort Mexico's and suchlike. If I never see another Allegro or Marina, no big deal. But an XR4i? Capri 3.0? Dolly Sprint? The list goes on.

It can't be all doom and gloom though, which is why I was interested in what was happening abroad, especially Germany. The DAF club still seem to exist, so there must be loads of people opting out of the debt cycle and just keeping their cars going. Looking at DAF owners, they seem to be enthusiasts who couldn't really give a toss about the fiscal side of things. Possibly they've opted into the Jay Leno scenario; new BMW for the day, old car for the weekend?

But it is definitely a jam tomorrow scheme.

[MJ]

But where it seems to strike home is the loss of the mint collectable ones. £3k to £4k, 20 year old mint cars are apparently finding their way into dealerships; dealers that have no interest in them. These cars are the equivalent of the Mk 1 Escort Mexico's and suchlike.

I suppose they aren't bothered, or can't spare the time, but you'd think that dealers offered such cars would offer a £2000 discount themselves rather than via the scheme. Then send them off to the car auction, as with normal trade ins, and make a couple quid on the side...

[Chris_C]

If I never see another Allegro or Marina, no big deal. But an XR4i? Capri 3.0? Dolly Sprint? The list goes on.

Don't need to worry about the Dolly... there are more Sprints on the owners club register books than were ever made by Triumph

[workshopmanualman]

You'd hope so, but dealers can't be bothered anymore - some just want shot of stuff. Dolly same as the Gold Star and escort Mexico then?

Noticed this morning that Volvo are stating that they'll give you £2k in addition to the government thing, so £4k off whatever model you chose. Makes you wonder how much hurt the deaers are taking doesn't it?

[trabitom99]

It can't be all doom and gloom though, which is why I was interested in what was happening abroad, especially Germany.

The scheme has unfortunately been a huge success. You don't have to go far, to spot the gleaming new Matiz where previously the Fiesta 1.3 Ghia was parked, a Skoda Fabia Estate (nasty car with stupid tiny wheels) instead of the Opel Omega. It will have a huge negative effect on what's known as the "Youngtimer" scene in Germany. Sure, cars like the Mk1 Golf GTI and W123 Mercs don't suffer this fate as their value is higher than the 2500 Euros on offer, these cars are already in the hands of enthusiasts. No-one gives a damn about rusty Twingos or Cinquecentos either. It's the future classics people are worried about - 190E 2.6, 300(T)E, Audi 200, VW Passat 5 cylinder, MkII Golf "phase one" special editions (there are lots of them in Germany, with funny names like "frolic" and "tramp" with alloys, metallic brown paint, velour trim and weird stripes, definitely classic potential!), Jaguar XJ. V6 Sierras and Scorpios, Astra / Escort / Pug 205 convertibles ... the list goes on. You may not be interested in these cars now, but give it 5-10 years and they will be sought after, just like the 1970s cars before them.

Also, since the scrap yards are full to bursting, they don't have time to remove any parts at all anymore, anything older than 10 years just gets flattened as quickly as possible to make space. That will have an effect on the parts situation in future, as many ratty cars which would have been "fed" into the scrapping / recycling system over a number of years and parted out are now just being cubed in an instant.

At least in the UK, industry is covering part of the costs. In Germany it's the tax payer who's supporting the ailing car industry entirely.

[Chris_C]

... It will have a huge negative effect on what's known as the "Youngtimer" scene in Germany. Sure, cars like the Mk1 Golf GTI and W123 Mercs don't suffer this fate as their value is higher than the 2500 Euros on offer, these cars are already in the hands of enthusiasts. No-one gives a damn about rusty Twingos or Cinquecentos either. It's the future classics people are worried about - 190E 2.6, 300(T)E, Audi 200, VW Passat 5 cylinder, MkII Golf "phase one" special editions (there are lots of them in Germany, with funny names like "frolic" and "tramp" with alloys, metallic brown paint, velour trim and weird stripes, definitely classic potential!), Jaguar XJ. V6 Sierras and Scorpios, Astra / Escort / Pug 205 convertibles ... the list goes on. You may not be interested in these cars now, but give it 5-10 years and they will be sought after, just like the 1970s cars before them.

I don't follow this view Tom (only this, not the "2k cashin is a bad idea") No one can guess what car will become a classic, those rusty Cinq's and Twingos may well get some love at some point (fwiw, I love the mid 90's Cinq, great car to drive). Who ever would have thought in the 70's that the working class mans car (the dagenham dustbin... or mk1/2 escort) would become as popular as it has. Also, everyone slated 300s for years for it to see a huge resurgence in the last 2. Classics will be what they will be, but we can't chose them now. Therefore nothing should ever been thrown away just in case (my garage is a good start as to why this is a really stupid idea) or we just have to deal with the fact that some things are going to become rare. I'm certainly not happy about it, but 90% of the world just doesn't care about fixing of *things* in general and thats something that can be seen in all areas from the last 15years.

What we need, are more proper engineers again.