Mac raises himself from his sick bed and ...........

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mac
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Mac raises himself from his sick bed and ...........

Post by mac » 31 Jan 2013 06:48 pm

Ok chaps, I'm not really here (SWMBO will get verrrry tetchy if she catches me) but I have been keeping an eye on threads and of late I am seeing a disturbing trend. I do not intend to link to any particular thread because It would only stir things up (and at the moment I do not have the strength or inclination to join in the fun).

Fact:- the original designers of the 300 knew a lot more about them than we ever will.
Fact:- the manufacturers did (and do) things for a reason.
Fact:- there is good engineering practice and there is "the bodge".
Fact:- there a small number of people who regularly post on this forum who really know what they are talking about.
Fact:- rather than listen to them and heed their advice the tendency is to "bodge"

I do not see any of them "just cutting a bit off" because "I know a case where it worked" , or "I've got the wrong bit so I'll just cut it down and weld it" etc. etc.
My point is that there is a correct way to do things - a bodge may well "work" (under some circumstances, for some time) but it will still be a bodge!. Eventually having fixed everything on the cheap you have a bodge on four wheels.

True, I admit that aged 15 I knew everything - but having spent 40 years in the engineering trade, over 25 of them as an investigative engineer for the people who built the 300s, I now realise, in my sixties I know nothing. When I started to produce my Diff gasket kit I carefully researched materials, clamping loads, compressibility etc. - why did I bother when an old bit of cardboard would have done just as well?. My bolts - proper thread form and an increase in grade - nah! Anything lying around will do!

I'm truly sorry if I offend but I really do believe that if we are to preserve these cars then things should be done properly and if the concensus is that anything that "works" will do - then I for one want no part of it!!!.

Mac, frustrated (at my illness), frustrated twice (at bogeing in general), and very, very, grumpy.
(and to cap it all Deb has caught me posting).
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Re: Mac raises himself from his sick bed and ...........

Post by volvodspec » 31 Jan 2013 07:51 pm

you're not the only one Mac, i'm even considering quiting with the TC at the dutch v3c as every advice you give just gets replied with that's too expensive and the whole bunch of blabla. it takes the fun out of things to constantly hear similar talk

unfortunatly it's a trend, and with the financial crisis still going on for the normal folk it will probably only get worse for the coming time

get well soon!

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Re: Mac raises himself from his sick bed and ...........

Post by macplaxton » 31 Jan 2013 08:40 pm

mac wrote:(and to cap it all Deb has caught me posting).
:mrgreen: oh dear mac! sm50

You must always obey the 11th and 12th commandments: Thou shalt not grass and don't get caught

Totally agree with the points raised though.
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Re: Mac raises himself from his sick bed and ...........

Post by Hell Driver » 31 Jan 2013 09:45 pm

Don't worry Mac, your efforts towards making parts available again are appreciated by many.

What can be worse than being caught posting when you should be resting?

ANSWER...being caught buying another 300 when you should be working :P
(actually I decided to come clean about this one as it's not actually going to making the garden look untidy (yet))
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Re: Mac raises himself from his sick bed and ...........

Post by Chris_C » 01 Feb 2013 02:25 am

volvodspec wrote:i'm even considering quiting with the TC at the dutch v3c as every advice you give just gets replied with that's too expensive and the whole bunch of blabla.
It's still not seen as a classic Anjo.

Whats the difference between a garage who restores a 1960s Austin and the garage who restores a 1960s Bentley? About £150 an hour.

They both do the same work, they both likely have to fabricate parts, do bodywork, same as we do. We are in the unenviable situation of being one of the first cars of our era (custom plastic mouldings rather than generic Lucas electrics/switches etc. We still get the "luxury" of standard clutches, brakes etc, but I think we are already in a great position.

Thing is, we are in this position because people are investing *stupid* (yes, hugely so) amounts of time to make it happen.

Long may it continue. Those who are bringing to the table know the work that others are also bringing to it. It may only be a small percentage of the scene in general, but it's a huge number compared to most cars.
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Ex:
'89(F) 340 GL F7R (ex B172k) - Fake -> SBKV 300 Runner Up 08, 12; '91(H) 340 GL B14.4E - Kar; '88(F) 360 GLT B200E - Jet -> BKV 300 Runner Up 09; '89(G) 360 GLT B200E - Beast

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Re: Mac raises himself from his sick bed and ...........

Post by Ride_on » 01 Feb 2013 02:56 am

Mac, I know exactly where you are comming from, I also was a investigating engineer but in Electronics. It is easy to do something that appears to work, much much harder to do something that will last the test of time, other component tolerances and some corrosion, nevermind have the same characteristics of the original.

Such things are not limited to Volvo's, I found myself fighting certain countries contract manufacturers who promise to use the exact capacitors we specified, but when they didn't order in time they decided to make their own substitutes. On checking the datasheets the parts would have worked but lifetime would have been considerably shorter and performance significantly affected, they had thought that capacitors where just Capacitance and Voltage. They havn't thought that we had specified different and expensive capacitors of the same value for a reason.

Unfortunately Volvo and the company I was working for, effectively went bust because people in general would rather buy product that are cheaper in the short term.
1980 345 DL_______1987 360 GLE (project car restored to GLT spec and B230FT'd)
1984 360 GLT______1987 360 GLT
1983 360 GLS______1989 360 GLE
1985 340 GL_______1986 340 1.4
1985 360 GLS______1995 940 SE 2.3 Turbo Estate (daily)
1987 340 GL 1.7

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Re: Mac raises himself from his sick bed and ...........

Post by Evoman » 01 Feb 2013 04:17 am

I fully understand your points Mac and in an ideal world we all would make the best efforts but I think some people "bodge" with a view that it only needs to last a couple more years or to just get it another MOT etc

Ride_on, your point about people preferring to buy things that are cheap in the short term should be noted by business and design obsolescence is a common consideration, e.g. why waste resources making it last 20 years when in 7 its value is zero and it will be in the waste stream? However I wish this wasn't the case and we would be far better off if products held their value for longer. :(

Mac, I fully appreciate your point about not knowing anything after all that time, Im in my 4th year of engineering and feel I know less than when I started :lol:

I would love to see more people do jobs properly, I hope I do them to an acceptable standard, but I'm always learning. I'm looking forward to a time when I can have a 300 as second car and really make an effort with it :)
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Re: Mac raises himself from his sick bed and ...........

Post by Chris_C » 01 Feb 2013 09:53 am

I think being tired last night and not fully thinking might have made me come across as a pretentious t*sser, wasn't the intention (though there is every chance I might be and have only just realised)

The point I was aiming for, but forgot to write the last paragraph for, was that having these people in the scene gives something for others to look at and thing "hang on, why is he doing things like that". At least, that's how I went from just bodging to always trying to do a proper job. When I joined here there were a fair number of us all just cable tieing cars together, at the time 300s were 99p on ebay and most often not selling at that price.

I've seen a lot of members on here (who have become standing regulars) go from having no idea what a spanner looks like to pretty damn competent, because many people have helped them learn both over the internet and at meets. They have been people who wanted to learn, which I'm pretty certain is the only skill someone requires to become competent. I'll put myself in that catagory, I couldn't do a huge amount with my car when I joined other than electrical stuff, my father did a radiator change for me when I was 17 and I paid a garage to do a starter motor. I had some very good advice here and I am still learning from here now.

I still think the 300 scene is ahead of most similar cars, there are discussions on here that you wouldn't see on some sports car forums. Rough with the smooth and all.
'89(G) 340 GLE B172k
'03 S60 D5 SE, '91 (J) MX5, 1954 Cyclemaster
Ex:
'89(F) 340 GL F7R (ex B172k) - Fake -> SBKV 300 Runner Up 08, 12; '91(H) 340 GL B14.4E - Kar; '88(F) 360 GLT B200E - Jet -> BKV 300 Runner Up 09; '89(G) 360 GLT B200E - Beast

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Re: Mac raises himself from his sick bed and ...........

Post by thebear54 » 01 Feb 2013 10:58 am

MAC...agree with your remarks. sm4

I however can see the other side of the coin concerning "bodging". Understandably there are bodgers in every field who choose (for whatever reason) to deviate from normal practice whether it be for cost, time constraint, lack of knowledge or just "don't care". Even I have bodged (anyone who tells me they have not - is lying! :wink: ) but make every effort to do the job properly.
People are all different (it would be a very dull world otherwise) and each will do his/her "own thing" so all you can do is try to explain the proper way. If they choose another path - that is their choice.

Now...STOP POSTING AND GET BETTER.

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Re: Mac raises himself from his sick bed and ...........

Post by volvomania » 01 Feb 2013 01:38 pm

mac wrote:True, I admit that aged 15 I knew everything - but having spent 40 years in the engineering trade, over 25 of them as an investigative engineer for the people who built the 300s, I now realise, in my sixties I know nothing.
Ahh the first signs of wisdom my son 8) ........realising that one only knows so little :?: as one learns so much more :!: .

Let me be a second Deb......NOW GO TO BED AND REST!!

Once you're well again you can start again buggering those of us who bodge and help those who pursue quality!

Get well man!

(BTW I agree fully with you but you probably knew that allready didn't you.)
Life is a journey, so sit back and enjoy the ride!

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Re: Mac raises himself from his sick bed and ...........

Post by 340GLT » 01 Feb 2013 09:12 pm

Mac I fully agree with all you said. I too have seen a trend with nit up to scratch repairs. There is a massive difference between a temporary roadside repair, and driving around with that repair until it needs doing again.
Improvisation is key when certain special tools may be needed but good practice needs to be considered when doing so.
The 300 is a very well designed car for the time period. Many design features such as the transaxle were ahead of their time. And again a fully agree with the designers knowing more than we do. I know I tend to modify more than most but I think much further than whether something will just fit.
For my personal application I know my 340 will be better than standard but for a road car I know it won't be.

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Re: Mac raises himself from his sick bed and ...........

Post by L14MNP » 01 Feb 2013 09:42 pm

It works both ways imo.

When you have owners of these cars who refuse to pay anything but coppers for parts, do you really expect them to be the type to look after and repair their cars in the most suitable fashion?

As sad as it is, the V300 series is a cheap (to purchase) car, and many people who own them do so for that reason alone.
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Re: Mac raises himself from his sick bed and ...........

Post by Ride_on » 02 Feb 2013 02:16 am

Evoman wrote: Ride_on, your point about people preferring to buy things that are cheap in the short term should be noted by business and design obsolescence is a common consideration, e.g. why waste resources making it last 20 years when in 7 its value is zero and it will be in the waste stream? However I wish this wasn't the case and we would be far better off if products held their value for longer. :(
:)
I'm taking about products that last 2 years, instead of 10 years for the sake of 1c. The problem is not business, it does a very good job of following the general rules and incentives set by gov't. The problem is the rules and they do not favour efficient use of resources, they favour business and the powerful. Forget about current market ideology, if we want a planet we can live on we need to figure out a better way to price our resources.
1980 345 DL_______1987 360 GLE (project car restored to GLT spec and B230FT'd)
1984 360 GLT______1987 360 GLT
1983 360 GLS______1989 360 GLE
1985 340 GL_______1986 340 1.4
1985 360 GLS______1995 940 SE 2.3 Turbo Estate (daily)
1987 340 GL 1.7

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Re: Mac raises himself from his sick bed and ...........

Post by mac » 02 Feb 2013 01:45 pm

From Ride-on -
I'm taking about products that last 2 years, instead of 10 years for the sake of 1c. The problem is not business, it does a very good job of following the general rules and incentives set by gov't. The problem is the rules and they do not favour efficient use of resources, they favour business and the powerful. Forget about current market ideology, if we want a planet we can live on we need to figure out a better way to price our resources.


AMEN!

Mac.
88 5door Redline 1.7 52k - 19 XC60 Momentum Pro D4 AWD 17k
1950 pair of legs that don't work very well.

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Re: Mac raises himself from his sick bed and ...........

Post by Evoman » 02 Feb 2013 04:42 pm

Ride_on wrote:
Evoman wrote: Ride_on, your point about people preferring to buy things that are cheap in the short term should be noted by business and design obsolescence is a common consideration, e.g. why waste resources making it last 20 years when in 7 its value is zero and it will be in the waste stream? However I wish this wasn't the case and we would be far better off if products held their value for longer. :(
:)
I'm taking about products that last 2 years, instead of 10 years for the sake of 1c. The problem is not business, it does a very good job of following the general rules and incentives set by gov't. The problem is the rules and they do not favour efficient use of resources, they favour business and the powerful. Forget about current market ideology, if we want a planet we can live on we need to figure out a better way to price our resources.
Ah yes, thats very different. You are spot on about the resource value arguement, our current attempts at imporveming our plant still seem to based on huge resource usage.
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