Have you noticed that the VOC forum has been offline the past few days? I can only asume it is because of the recent bickering as there is no explination as to why it is off.
I am very glad we do not get such issues on this forum and when moderators due step in there is usualy an explination as to why a post has been edited or removed etc.
It's great to have this nice small comunity and hope it does stay this way for many years to come
VOC forum offline
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classicswede
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VOC forum offline
Dai
Please email me directly on dai@classicswede.co.uk
http://www.classicswede.com
phone/text 07824887160
Web shop http://www.classicswede.co.uk/
Please email me directly on dai@classicswede.co.uk
http://www.classicswede.com
phone/text 07824887160
Web shop http://www.classicswede.co.uk/
Yeah, it's been a while and I had some PM's in my inbox that were needed when I went to go and look at a 360 for sale, pretty annoying...!
I too wonder if it's the latest saga of bickering, it's a shame the people who run the forum have to go to such lengths to sort it all out
I too wonder if it's the latest saga of bickering, it's a shame the people who run the forum have to go to such lengths to sort it all out
1989 - Volvo 360 GLT
1985 - Volvo 360 GLS
2008 - Volvo S60 SE Lux
1985 - Volvo 360 GLS
2008 - Volvo S60 SE Lux
I is indeed down due to the bickering - the mischief makers have got their way. Bob Isaac has come in for a lot of unwarranted critisism from a number of people who should know better.
I have had a lengthy discussion with Chris Wickers (one of the VOC directors) and much hinges on how much responsibiltity can be levelled at the VOC for comments posted on an "open" forum - indeed in a recent case, legal action for defamation was threatened by a trader on the end of some (perhaps unwise) comments.
Whether such action could ever succeed (or indeed would ever go beyond threats) is not the issue. An organisation the size of the VOC becomes "fair game" and the forum moderators had to take a cautious approach. The post was taken down and the bickering started!
It was suggested in some quarters that the VOC was in the axis of evil by suppressing free speech (free speech in a country where you can be arrested under terrorism laws for expressing an opinion contrary to the encumbent of No.10???). There have been calls for heads to roll and a extraordinary general meeting to be held!! - ie:- the whole thing got very quickly out of hand. Demands were made for Bob Isaac to make statements - well he has and the forum is down!
Reading between the lines it seems that the result of all this is that the forum will reopen, rebranded, and clearly as a Volvo Owners Club forum under much, much, tighter control - If the VOC are to be made responsible for what is posted then they will damn well control what is posted (there is even talk of a strictly technical only forum) and more than likely for VOC members only!! So for those who wish to say whatever they like it has all rather backfired!
The other option seemed to be for the VOC to wash it's hands entirely of the forum and have nothing to do with it - but recognising the value to members it seems not to be taking that course.
My own personal view is that the loss of the ability to report poor service and to offer criticism would be very sad indeed - but as I said the moderators had to take a cautious path. I still feel that there must be a way of posting adverse comments and still remain fair to all.
For what it's worth I have (as usual) put my oar in and suggested to the the directors the following.
State a clear posting policy including no UNSTUBSTANTIATED criticism.
Make agreeing to the policy a condition of registering to post.
Have a set proceedure for recipients of criticism to respond.
Investigate how the VOC could act as intermediaries.
Seek indemnity insurance, the cost to be covered by a small forum members subsription.
It is probable that the forum will reopen in a week or so - but it's still "jaw jaw" time.
Hope this clarifies things a little (actually I'm really pi**ed off it's down but lets hope some people appreciate what they could potentially loose)
None of the above should be construed an official policy or statement by the VOC but is only the ramblings of a bearded old fart aged 7 1/2.
Mac.
I have had a lengthy discussion with Chris Wickers (one of the VOC directors) and much hinges on how much responsibiltity can be levelled at the VOC for comments posted on an "open" forum - indeed in a recent case, legal action for defamation was threatened by a trader on the end of some (perhaps unwise) comments.
Whether such action could ever succeed (or indeed would ever go beyond threats) is not the issue. An organisation the size of the VOC becomes "fair game" and the forum moderators had to take a cautious approach. The post was taken down and the bickering started!
It was suggested in some quarters that the VOC was in the axis of evil by suppressing free speech (free speech in a country where you can be arrested under terrorism laws for expressing an opinion contrary to the encumbent of No.10???). There have been calls for heads to roll and a extraordinary general meeting to be held!! - ie:- the whole thing got very quickly out of hand. Demands were made for Bob Isaac to make statements - well he has and the forum is down!
Reading between the lines it seems that the result of all this is that the forum will reopen, rebranded, and clearly as a Volvo Owners Club forum under much, much, tighter control - If the VOC are to be made responsible for what is posted then they will damn well control what is posted (there is even talk of a strictly technical only forum) and more than likely for VOC members only!! So for those who wish to say whatever they like it has all rather backfired!
The other option seemed to be for the VOC to wash it's hands entirely of the forum and have nothing to do with it - but recognising the value to members it seems not to be taking that course.
My own personal view is that the loss of the ability to report poor service and to offer criticism would be very sad indeed - but as I said the moderators had to take a cautious path. I still feel that there must be a way of posting adverse comments and still remain fair to all.
For what it's worth I have (as usual) put my oar in and suggested to the the directors the following.
State a clear posting policy including no UNSTUBSTANTIATED criticism.
Make agreeing to the policy a condition of registering to post.
Have a set proceedure for recipients of criticism to respond.
Investigate how the VOC could act as intermediaries.
Seek indemnity insurance, the cost to be covered by a small forum members subsription.
It is probable that the forum will reopen in a week or so - but it's still "jaw jaw" time.
Hope this clarifies things a little (actually I'm really pi**ed off it's down but lets hope some people appreciate what they could potentially loose)
None of the above should be construed an official policy or statement by the VOC but is only the ramblings of a bearded old fart aged 7 1/2.
Mac.
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trabitom99
- *** V3M DONOR ***
- Posts: 4398
- Joined: 06 Jan 2007 02:38 pm
- Location: Bonn, Germany
Oh dear, what a mess!
A moderator can't be blamed for removing a post he might get sued for. A similar thing happened to a colleague of mine, in a forum which he hosts someone had said libelous things about a publican. At the end of the day, it wasn't the "poster" who had to go to court, but my colleague, despite having deleted the post!
Luckily, the case was thrown out of court pretty quickly, but it gave him quite a shock.
It's an easy for forum members to do, writing "don't buy from this guy!" kind of things, but it's the mods and admins who take the legal blame for it at the end of the day. Pity it had to come to this on the VOC Forum.
Tom
A moderator can't be blamed for removing a post he might get sued for. A similar thing happened to a colleague of mine, in a forum which he hosts someone had said libelous things about a publican. At the end of the day, it wasn't the "poster" who had to go to court, but my colleague, despite having deleted the post!
Luckily, the case was thrown out of court pretty quickly, but it gave him quite a shock.
It's an easy for forum members to do, writing "don't buy from this guy!" kind of things, but it's the mods and admins who take the legal blame for it at the end of the day. Pity it had to come to this on the VOC Forum.
Tom
343 GL Touring B14.1E CVT (155) 98000kms 1980 (sold)
343 L Junior B14.3E MT4 (155) 229000kms 1981 (scrapped)
343 DLS B19A MT4 (155) 167900kms 1982
360 GL Injection B200F MT5 (231) 348598kms 1988 (scrapped)
360 GLT B200F MT5 (302) 230000kms 1988
343 L Junior B14.3E MT4 (155) 229000kms 1981 (scrapped)
343 DLS B19A MT4 (155) 167900kms 1982
360 GL Injection B200F MT5 (231) 348598kms 1988 (scrapped)
360 GLT B200F MT5 (302) 230000kms 1988
Surly a 'all views expressed are those of the respective poster and in no way reflect the view of the forum owners' get out would work, no?
I though that usually a host of information with no control of content (such as an ISP) is not usually responsible for material they host (unless they fail to remove anything knowingly illegal)... The A level law is a bit rusty
I though that usually a host of information with no control of content (such as an ISP) is not usually responsible for material they host (unless they fail to remove anything knowingly illegal)... The A level law is a bit rusty
I'd noticed it's down, I need to get in contact with someone too, whose number is in my pm box 
It's a shame, I've kept out of all the latest bickering, the whole thing is pathetic, and it p*sses me off that certain members of that forum left and "come back" whenever there are problems to stick their ha'penny in.
Dai, I couldn't agree with you more, being a mod on this forum is so easy compared to what it could be, I think we are all greatful for the community spirit that we have, both on the intertron, and in real life, and long may that continue.
It's a shame, I've kept out of all the latest bickering, the whole thing is pathetic, and it p*sses me off that certain members of that forum left and "come back" whenever there are problems to stick their ha'penny in.
Dai, I couldn't agree with you more, being a mod on this forum is so easy compared to what it could be, I think we are all greatful for the community spirit that we have, both on the intertron, and in real life, and long may that continue.
'89(G) 340 GLE B172k
'03 S60 D5 SE, '91 (J) MX5, 1954 Cyclemaster
Ex:
'89(F) 340 GL F7R (ex B172k) - Fake -> SBKV 300 Runner Up 08, 12; '91(H) 340 GL B14.4E - Kar; '88(F) 360 GLT B200E - Jet -> BKV 300 Runner Up 09; '89(G) 360 GLT B200E - Beast
'03 S60 D5 SE, '91 (J) MX5, 1954 Cyclemaster
Ex:
'89(F) 340 GL F7R (ex B172k) - Fake -> SBKV 300 Runner Up 08, 12; '91(H) 340 GL B14.4E - Kar; '88(F) 360 GLT B200E - Jet -> BKV 300 Runner Up 09; '89(G) 360 GLT B200E - Beast
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foggyjames
- *** V3M DONOR ***
- Posts: 9361
- Joined: 29 Jan 2004 04:20 am
- Location: Nottingham, UK
Sadly disclaimers pretty much aren't ever worth the paper they're written on.
I'm not exactly sure who the trader in question is. If it's who I think it is, it would be good for him to lose in court and be fined a huge amount, as a lesson that bullying through threats of litigation are not the way to conduct yourself as a responsible businessman...especially not one who is selling to a community. Some people have NO idea of how to conduct themselves.
He almost certainly would lose, for what it's worth...but who is willing to take the risk of taking him on. There was an implication at one point that I would be seeing him in court, and I'd have been willing to bring the pain! Sadly, as Chesh pointed out on TBricks, the VOC does have assets, which makes it an attractive target.
I do hope the forum comes back. I totally agree that MUCH tighter moderation is needed. Bob and Iain were (with the best will in the world....and with the intention of creating the most useful forum they could) fighting a losing battle. Ultimately, it's not a democracy, and you need to be prepared to give unruly posters a good hard slap. It's for the good of the community.
cheers
James
I'm not exactly sure who the trader in question is. If it's who I think it is, it would be good for him to lose in court and be fined a huge amount, as a lesson that bullying through threats of litigation are not the way to conduct yourself as a responsible businessman...especially not one who is selling to a community. Some people have NO idea of how to conduct themselves.
He almost certainly would lose, for what it's worth...but who is willing to take the risk of taking him on. There was an implication at one point that I would be seeing him in court, and I'd have been willing to bring the pain! Sadly, as Chesh pointed out on TBricks, the VOC does have assets, which makes it an attractive target.
I do hope the forum comes back. I totally agree that MUCH tighter moderation is needed. Bob and Iain were (with the best will in the world....and with the intention of creating the most useful forum they could) fighting a losing battle. Ultimately, it's not a democracy, and you need to be prepared to give unruly posters a good hard slap. It's for the good of the community.
cheers
James
VOC 300-series Register Keeper
'89 740 Turbo Intercooler
'88 360 Turbo Intercooler
'85 360 GLT
'81 343 GLS R-Sport
'79 343 DL
'70 164
...and some modern FWD nonsense to get me to work...
'89 740 Turbo Intercooler
'88 360 Turbo Intercooler
'85 360 GLT
'81 343 GLS R-Sport
'79 343 DL
'70 164
...and some modern FWD nonsense to get me to work...
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redline
- *** V3M DONOR ***
- Posts: 5432
- Joined: 05 Oct 2004 10:18 am
- Location: MILTON KEYNES , ENGLAND
thats a tragedy ,
it is a shame when people use forums for there own agendas and it happens so often ,
It recently nearly happenned on the B X club , It used to be that this was more prone on multi make clubs like retro rides etc where badge snobbery comes into play ,
you know things like my Camry is better than Wills Clio etc
but for people to get like this in one make or even one model clubs is truly sad .
Its bad enough with manufacturers trying to kill us off by no longer producing vital parts without infighting amongst members who are supposed to be there to support each other and help keep older cars on the road .
regarding what caused all this in the first place
and please bear in mind I am generalising as I am not a VOC member and therefore did not see any of this.
Its a shame, in a way ,that if you honestly criticize the level of work or
whatever that you receive from a reputable garage or supplier ,
that the said establishment can take this sort of action .
If I had a bad experience at say Halfords or kwik fit ,I dont see why I cant pass that information on on a forum as long as its true.
Its no different to telling a friend in the pub that so and so buggered up your welding or whatever.
Perhaps the offending garage or supplier should look into cleaning up there act and putting there house in order before threatening legal action.
after all the customer is supposed to be always right
it is a shame when people use forums for there own agendas and it happens so often ,
It recently nearly happenned on the B X club , It used to be that this was more prone on multi make clubs like retro rides etc where badge snobbery comes into play ,
you know things like my Camry is better than Wills Clio etc
but for people to get like this in one make or even one model clubs is truly sad .
Its bad enough with manufacturers trying to kill us off by no longer producing vital parts without infighting amongst members who are supposed to be there to support each other and help keep older cars on the road .
regarding what caused all this in the first place
and please bear in mind I am generalising as I am not a VOC member and therefore did not see any of this.
Its a shame, in a way ,that if you honestly criticize the level of work or
whatever that you receive from a reputable garage or supplier ,
that the said establishment can take this sort of action .
If I had a bad experience at say Halfords or kwik fit ,I dont see why I cant pass that information on on a forum as long as its true.
Its no different to telling a friend in the pub that so and so buggered up your welding or whatever.
Perhaps the offending garage or supplier should look into cleaning up there act and putting there house in order before threatening legal action.
after all the customer is supposed to be always right
I'm a little less beardy!
As a result of the way in which the VOC forum has been closed with no warning I have resigned from the VOC as of this morning. I have sent a lengthy e-mail to the directors but in brief my reasons are:-
The penalising of the majority for the sake of a few is a principle I can never agree with. I understand Bob Isaacs situation but many will see the way in which the forum has been closed as a petulant lashing out (IT ISN'T I'm sure but many will see it as such). I simply could not agree with the way in which closure took place - no warning - no chance to close conversations - etc, etc.
Let us make sure the same problems NEVER happen on this forum.
Sad, a bit pissed off, but definitely less beardy (still an old fart though).!!!
Mac.
As a result of the way in which the VOC forum has been closed with no warning I have resigned from the VOC as of this morning. I have sent a lengthy e-mail to the directors but in brief my reasons are:-
The penalising of the majority for the sake of a few is a principle I can never agree with. I understand Bob Isaacs situation but many will see the way in which the forum has been closed as a petulant lashing out (IT ISN'T I'm sure but many will see it as such). I simply could not agree with the way in which closure took place - no warning - no chance to close conversations - etc, etc.
Let us make sure the same problems NEVER happen on this forum.
Sad, a bit pissed off, but definitely less beardy (still an old fart though).!!!
Mac.
Those sounded like good plans to me, particularly the indemnity insurance. I'm sure that VOC members would be happy to pay a small amount more on their subscription to cover that cost, because I fear that Foggy is right and disclaimers seem to hardly have any effect.mac wrote: State a clear posting policy including no UNSTUBSTANTIATED criticism.
Make agreeing to the policy a condition of registering to post.
Have a set proceedure for recipients of criticism to respond.
Investigate how the VOC could act as intermediaries.
Seek indemnity insurance, the cost to be covered by a small forum members subsription.
Mac.
Its a shame you resigned from VOC Mac, they've lost a great asset there. I hope you're gonna stick with us though
I agree with the other guys on here that I hope we never get that kind of situation on here. Thank goodness we very rarely have to do any kind of moderating on here at all.
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petefarrell360
- *** V3M DONOR ***
- Posts: 3083
- Joined: 11 Oct 2004 07:12 pm
- Location: Bucks, UK
What a shocking situation! Mac, I concur with Andy's comments, they have lost a great asset within the VOC.
Since buying into newer FWD Volvoness, (not having left the RWD goodness of the 300, but merely moving onto a daily drive that might leave the 300's more time for care and less daily abuse,) I required the very good technical resources the VOC forums offered. On visiting the site I found it was not currently viewable, then I saw this thread the next day. Removing the entire forum from view is not the answer.
Leaving the useful technical section, or everything on view and locking the forums until the problem is sorted is one way forward. Suspending the involved members until the dispute is sorted is another. It's the age old problem, everyone suffers and gets punished for the bad behaviour of a small minority.
Personally, I have no interest in what the argument was about or what kicked it off, and I will make no comment on it from here say and speculation. Very wrong and misinformed judgements can be made in this way.
A public forum is merely another open form of voicing any opinion. The problem is, the 'internet tough guy' comes out to play, as they can hide behind a username, they can say what they want to who they want, often without thinking, and often safe in the knowledge they will never meet these people, in real life they probably would not say face to face the things they would on a forum.
I too hope V3M never gets into a situation like this. We have always had an incredibly friendly and welcoming forum, I hope it stays this way forever. There is nothing I hate more than bitching, closed groups of friends that hate newcomers and any accusations made against someone that are unfounded.
I won't go into detail here, but I have been the victim of libellous accusations and comments on an internet forum. The forum in question states in the terms and conditions on joining, something along the lines of; any views and opinions and information posted on the forum are those of the user and not of the forum, and they take no responsibility for anything posted on there.
On contacting the moderators of the forum, they removed the offending topic, however it had been on view for over four months, and I had been named within it. I do not hold the forum responsible for anything to do with the topic, they cannot control everything within it. I believe one or two moderators have made attempts to cover my name, but had not spotted them all or kept up with the thread. The person who wrote it is responsible, pure and simple! The problem was I did not know anything about it or spot it until recently and it was full of lies and inaccuracies.
The other problem is, in my opinion anyway, as the internet expands and becomes more popular, this problem is only going to get worse. How far do you go with censorship? At what point can you prevent someone sharing or voicing an opinion? I will always defend the right for everyone to have an opinion, that is what makes us individuals and allows the world to change, not always for the better, but it also allows discussion. My problem with opinion is when it turns into a statement, allegation or accusation against someone or something. There is nothing wrong with stating facts, but when opinion forms an allegation or accusation, especially when it is based on rumour, here say or second or third hand information, the problem can get out of hand and is wrong. When presented with one side of a story, the impartial user can make a comment, this can then escalate, opinions can be divided, sides may be taken, more problems can arise, arguments may start, the other side of the story may be represented, and so it continues!
I think some of the blame in some of these situations can be given to the unconnected user who passes comment. Yes it is their right to have an opinion, but you must always remember there are always two sides to every story! You may have only been presented with one, that is most probably trying to win your support or backing, in which case it may be biased, not presenting all of the facts, or untrue. By commenting, you may be adding fuel to the fire. I often make the active decision that by keeping out of such discussions until I have both sides a story, (in internet and real life situations) I can then make an informed decision and form an impartial opinion based on facts, then if there is a need for my opinion to be stated or heard, it should not be anything I may later regret.
Sorry for the long post, but it is something I have had to deal with recently. I hope V3M remains a happy, friendly place to be, but somewhere that free speech is allowed, yet people think before posting, and consider that there are two sides to every story.
Also one last point to make is that in real face to face situations, you can often pick up on the tone of voice, the way in which something is said and understand how something is intended to be taken and even facial expressions and body language can help in this. Two identical sentences can mean two very different things, for example if said sarcastically. In written form, when unable to see the other useful aids to understanding how something should be received, written comments can be misunderstood, yes we have smilies and exclamation marks etc, but thngs can be misread or misconstrued.
If you made it this far..... ,
the ever opinionated,
Pete
Since buying into newer FWD Volvoness, (not having left the RWD goodness of the 300, but merely moving onto a daily drive that might leave the 300's more time for care and less daily abuse,) I required the very good technical resources the VOC forums offered. On visiting the site I found it was not currently viewable, then I saw this thread the next day. Removing the entire forum from view is not the answer.
Leaving the useful technical section, or everything on view and locking the forums until the problem is sorted is one way forward. Suspending the involved members until the dispute is sorted is another. It's the age old problem, everyone suffers and gets punished for the bad behaviour of a small minority.
Personally, I have no interest in what the argument was about or what kicked it off, and I will make no comment on it from here say and speculation. Very wrong and misinformed judgements can be made in this way.
A public forum is merely another open form of voicing any opinion. The problem is, the 'internet tough guy' comes out to play, as they can hide behind a username, they can say what they want to who they want, often without thinking, and often safe in the knowledge they will never meet these people, in real life they probably would not say face to face the things they would on a forum.
I too hope V3M never gets into a situation like this. We have always had an incredibly friendly and welcoming forum, I hope it stays this way forever. There is nothing I hate more than bitching, closed groups of friends that hate newcomers and any accusations made against someone that are unfounded.
I won't go into detail here, but I have been the victim of libellous accusations and comments on an internet forum. The forum in question states in the terms and conditions on joining, something along the lines of; any views and opinions and information posted on the forum are those of the user and not of the forum, and they take no responsibility for anything posted on there.
On contacting the moderators of the forum, they removed the offending topic, however it had been on view for over four months, and I had been named within it. I do not hold the forum responsible for anything to do with the topic, they cannot control everything within it. I believe one or two moderators have made attempts to cover my name, but had not spotted them all or kept up with the thread. The person who wrote it is responsible, pure and simple! The problem was I did not know anything about it or spot it until recently and it was full of lies and inaccuracies.
The other problem is, in my opinion anyway, as the internet expands and becomes more popular, this problem is only going to get worse. How far do you go with censorship? At what point can you prevent someone sharing or voicing an opinion? I will always defend the right for everyone to have an opinion, that is what makes us individuals and allows the world to change, not always for the better, but it also allows discussion. My problem with opinion is when it turns into a statement, allegation or accusation against someone or something. There is nothing wrong with stating facts, but when opinion forms an allegation or accusation, especially when it is based on rumour, here say or second or third hand information, the problem can get out of hand and is wrong. When presented with one side of a story, the impartial user can make a comment, this can then escalate, opinions can be divided, sides may be taken, more problems can arise, arguments may start, the other side of the story may be represented, and so it continues!
I think some of the blame in some of these situations can be given to the unconnected user who passes comment. Yes it is their right to have an opinion, but you must always remember there are always two sides to every story! You may have only been presented with one, that is most probably trying to win your support or backing, in which case it may be biased, not presenting all of the facts, or untrue. By commenting, you may be adding fuel to the fire. I often make the active decision that by keeping out of such discussions until I have both sides a story, (in internet and real life situations) I can then make an informed decision and form an impartial opinion based on facts, then if there is a need for my opinion to be stated or heard, it should not be anything I may later regret.
Sorry for the long post, but it is something I have had to deal with recently. I hope V3M remains a happy, friendly place to be, but somewhere that free speech is allowed, yet people think before posting, and consider that there are two sides to every story.
Also one last point to make is that in real face to face situations, you can often pick up on the tone of voice, the way in which something is said and understand how something is intended to be taken and even facial expressions and body language can help in this. Two identical sentences can mean two very different things, for example if said sarcastically. In written form, when unable to see the other useful aids to understanding how something should be received, written comments can be misunderstood, yes we have smilies and exclamation marks etc, but thngs can be misread or misconstrued.
If you made it this far.....
, the ever opinionated,
Pete
G reg 360 GLT, G reg 340 GL Variomatic, plus many more..........
What is wrong with people?
Temporary ban was all that was needed before and one who got that understood that he did not play within rules of board. Now it has come to this, quite childish from whoever has sued them, good old spanking should cure that but of course we could bring him behind of sauna and no more of problem.
But current situation is just stupidity, any lawyer should see right trough it and never let case to enter to court.
It is just an forum, maybe some people take it bit too seriously?
Temporary ban was all that was needed before and one who got that understood that he did not play within rules of board. Now it has come to this, quite childish from whoever has sued them, good old spanking should cure that but of course we could bring him behind of sauna and no more of problem.
But current situation is just stupidity, any lawyer should see right trough it and never let case to enter to court.
It is just an forum, maybe some people take it bit too seriously?
Volvo 360GL -88 -under restoration-
Volvo 343DL vario -81 -running-
Volvo 240 Diesel -83 -undecided-
Citroen ZX Dturbo -97 -daily-
Volvo 343DL vario -81 -running-
Volvo 240 Diesel -83 -undecided-
Citroen ZX Dturbo -97 -daily-