360 with 740/940 turbo lumps- bigger than stock turbo?

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Stefan
Posts: 179
Joined: 18 Aug 2008 07:51 pm
Location: codnor derbyshire

Re: 360 with 740/940 turbo lumps- bigger than stock turbo?

Post by Stefan » 10 Dec 2009 09:36 am

For me it would have to be a 16v head ever since i found this on turbo bricks

Regarding gas velocities and building 16v motors, the intake port and runner area needs to be increased quite a bit if the engine is to be taken higher than 6000rpm (the stock runner and port become limitations much earlier than this btw).

Here's a quick example with some rough numbers:

Let's say we want a somewhat worked 16v with a goal of 900hp@8800rpm on E85. I would build it as follows:

36mm intake valves with a bowl area of that's 87% of the valve's face area. I would gradually enlarge the port it until it has the equivalent area of a 44-45mm diameter circle (at the intake manifold gasket). This should give an intake flow of 310cfm@28", assuming it's been properly ported.

The intake runner would start (at the head) with an area equivalent to that of a 45mm (diameter) circle, then gradually widen to 52-55mm. The length of the runners would be about 14-18cm (plus the depth of the ports), followed by a large plenum and an 80mm throttle body.

I would keep the exhaust ports and valves stock. Cleaned up slightly they would give 250cfm@28".

The combustion chambers would remain largely stock, and the pistons would be inverted dome style with a negative deck height of about 2-3mm. The compression would land somewhere around 7.5-8.0:1.

Cam specs would be 245/0.05" on the intake side, and 250/0.05" on the exhaust side. Both would lift 13.5mm.

The header would have 47mm ID primaries approximately 50cm long with a divided inlet. A 50-60mm wastegate would control boost to approx. 37psi.

I would run something like a Holset HX60 or a Borg-Warner S400 with a 76mm compressor inlet and an 88mm turbine outlet with a turbine housing matched to make about 25psi of backpressure.

A large intercooler and a 4" exhaust would finish it up.


I would love a go at this in a mk1 343 :D
1978 Volvo 343 DL Black Beauty (sold)
1976 Volvo 66GL estate sold
1976 Daf 46 van (sold)
1972 Daf 55 coupe for sale
1974 Daf 33 van sold
1968 Daf Pony
1964 Daf 31

Stav2
Posts: 21
Joined: 12 Oct 2009 12:11 pm

Re: 360 with 740/940 turbo lumps- bigger than stock turbo?

Post by Stav2 » 10 Dec 2009 12:47 pm

Ultimately the 16V is better of course, but this is talking about 900bhp and 8000rpm, something 99% of people wont ever tune their car to even 50% of.
Considering how well the 8V head can be made to flow, and how much messing about it is to fit, I'm not too fussed about changing to 16V.

Mildly off topic, that spec above, something that does 37psi boost but only 25psi backpressure is either dreaming of an ideal scenario (it sounds like internet tuning to me) and/or will drive like a total and utter turd, especially on such a small capacity engine. And when I mean a turd I mean even in comparison to other setups with a 76mm turbo like mentioned in the writing (not like Borg Warner even do a S400 with a 76mm inducer, and thought the HX60 one is something like 80mm, so not sure I would listen to that person regardless...)

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foggyjames
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Joined: 29 Jan 2004 04:20 am
Location: Nottingham, UK

Re: 360 with 740/940 turbo lumps- bigger than stock turbo?

Post by foggyjames » 10 Dec 2009 02:33 pm

What's the world coming to when talk of effective backpressure ratio makes it to V3M?! Last time I checked we were only one stage better than the VOC when it came to agonising over which cone filter to buy :D I was reading a very interesting post a while ago (on Tbricks, I think) about how lowering the EBR allows you to be much more relaxed about cam specs (specifically overlap, as the risk of reversion is reduced)...which in turn allows better spool up. In other words, get it right, and you don't have to sacrifice spool time quite as much as you might expect when "going large".

We're stepping up to a Holset (HE351...IIRC it's basically a newer generation HY35) on the 740 in an attempt to improve our poor EBR situation - up to 2 Bar at the inlet manifold, but still a standard manifold and .63 A/R T3 hotside (I haven't measured the wheel in the current turbo...all I know is my housemate bought it from China off eBay, and the turbine wheel is smaller than the one on the previous eBay-tastic knock-off T3/T4 hybrid :lol: ).

cheers

James
VOC 300-series Register Keeper
'89 740 Turbo Intercooler
'88 360 Turbo Intercooler
'85 360 GLT
'81 343 GLS R-Sport
'79 343 DL
'70 164
...and some modern FWD nonsense to get me to work...

Stav2
Posts: 21
Joined: 12 Oct 2009 12:11 pm

Re: 360 with 740/940 turbo lumps- bigger than stock turbo?

Post by Stav2 » 10 Dec 2009 02:52 pm

Turbos are spooled by 3 things, flow, pressure, heat. Less backpressure means more flow but less heat (not sure if there is a constant ratio on that or not, doubt it), but yeah, less backpressure, if its at a level (which will totally depend on the rest of the engine spec) where less will increase flow in/out the engine hugely, can make spool no worse or sometimes even better.
But thats usually at crazy 3:1+ B-B levels, aside from on paper, at lower levels you are almost always, especially below 2:1 no matter how well designed the setup is, trading off spool for improved power/reliability when lowering backpressure.

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foggyjames
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Re: 360 with 740/940 turbo lumps- bigger than stock turbo?

Post by foggyjames » 10 Dec 2009 04:11 pm

The trouble is that the EBR *is* often 3+:1 in modern applications. Take the S60R/V70R/Focus RS engine....20psi of boost, but full torque at 2250rpm. In that sort of situation, you could pretty easily add 100whp for perhaps 500rpm spool delay (at the same boost pressure).

cheers

James
VOC 300-series Register Keeper
'89 740 Turbo Intercooler
'88 360 Turbo Intercooler
'85 360 GLT
'81 343 GLS R-Sport
'79 343 DL
'70 164
...and some modern FWD nonsense to get me to work...

Stefan
Posts: 179
Joined: 18 Aug 2008 07:51 pm
Location: codnor derbyshire

Re: 360 with 740/940 turbo lumps- bigger than stock turbo?

Post by Stefan » 10 Dec 2009 04:16 pm

That person is on a site called savar turbo and has this engine in has mustard 142 volvo door slamer and the times back up what he says he makes alot of after market parts for a lot of fast swede volvo racers.

Agreed on the driving like a turd part must be a pig to use on road but my intrests in the spec are for drag racing instead of the v8 everybody has
1978 Volvo 343 DL Black Beauty (sold)
1976 Volvo 66GL estate sold
1976 Daf 46 van (sold)
1972 Daf 55 coupe for sale
1974 Daf 33 van sold
1968 Daf Pony
1964 Daf 31

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