piston rings

[Lonewolf]

My engine developed a bit of a smoking habit after my last oil change, it blows smoke only in the morning of after being left to sit for a few hours, but aside from that, its clean. I'm thinking the piston rings or the valve seal is on the way out, moreso the piston rings as it doesnt blow oil when high rev gear changes occur. Anyway i thought it as good a time as any to put some gapless rings in, but theres no listing on b200's, however b20's get a mention and wondering if they take the same ring?

[huskyracer]

does it only 'puff' smoke as its started and then clear? If so I think it will be stem seals rather than rings, total seal gapless rings can cause more poblems than there worth, if the bores and pistons are good, I would use the stock ring type

[Lonewolf]

yeah it gives a belch of blue when cold and thats it, i'm thinking it may be the valve sealing, my understanding is that the blue smoke would continue until the engine was warm if it were the rings, but then i'm no expert either.

What problems have u had with total seal? they were one of the gapless people i was considering, as they use the main ring and then a second one to cover the gap, i know there is another gapless type where the ends slot into each other, which sounds like a more reliable design, but parts are abundant for the B20, with no listing on the B200 hence my reason for asking if it uses the same ring as a B200.

[jtbo]

I had once a 'people and stuff transferring device' that had good smoke from first start. It was valve sealing on that one, mechanic replaced those and dropped valve into cylinder while doing it.

After that it smoked much less, but that valve or something else was damaged so little smoke was left and at cold it did start ok but had no power until 10-15 mins.

[morgan105]

Yeah, I too would go for the oil stem seals but it could be the stems or guides that are worn. Another thing I have come accross in the past, seeing as this is after the oil change, check the oil level in the car as it may be over filled and this can cause engine to smoke while warming up (check when cold), this may just be the problem, otherwise go for the stem seals and guides.

I agree with huskyracer, stick to stock rings and not full seal as they do cause more problems then they're worth.

[SteveP]

I thought oil should always be checked on a warm engine?

[morgan105]

The reason to check oil when engine is cold is that the oil has returned back to the sump, otherwise the oil can still be in different parts of the engine since it was circulated by the engine warming and this will give a false reading on the stick, and when oil is warm it thins out.

[SteveP]

I thought this until recently, but I've read its not the way to do it:

http://www.ehow.com/how_103_check-oil.html

Although it seems like its an on-going debate as to which method is correct, and both are right to an extent!

http://www.advanceautoparts.com/english ... 001co.html

[jtbo]

Wait 10-15 minutes after engine is turned off, then you should get correct reading. Imo, if engine is cold or warm is not so big difference, you will get more error to reading when car is not on straight surface, if one checks oil in a steep hill that would be same as cheking oil when engine is running and there you can see that engine has oil or has not, but that is about it.

That is at least what they tech in mechanic school in here

[huskyracer]

We did some testing on piston ring types a few years ago,in a Golf rally car, we found that total seal rings gave a small power increase, but as they only use the sealed type on the second ring, this ring was doing all the sealing. because the pressure above and below the top ring is kept fairly equal, the top ring 'collapsed' back into the ring grove on the compression stroke, causing rapid ring wear. Also bore wear is increased. Remember that rings seal because they are forced to the bottom and out of the ring groove by the gas pressure in the cylinder, not by the'springiness' of the ring

[Lonewolf]

the oil couldnt have been overfilled, on my last change i put 1/4 liter less than recomended for a full change, and hadnt touched it till i noticed the smoke, and when measured it was at less than 1/4 capacity, so i put the remaining 1/2 liter in. so I can swear it hasnt been overfilled.

If its part of the valvetrain, cool, i've mentioned before i've got a spare head so i'll put up with it till the head is ready. As for the piston rings, i get the feeling there is not much support for these gapless type rings, only husky seems to have had experience with them, however I was intending on having all 3 rings gapless, not just the 2nd ring.

Now, does anyone know if the b20's are similar to b200's in that they use the same rings, as there is plenty in the way of b20 aftermarket rings, nothing in the way of b200's. I thought i'd put some better rings in, and if its not the rings, then they will stay packed up till my other motor gets recon'd, so was shopping around for gapless, the ones with that moly-and-12-more-words-after-it coating, as opposed to cast iron rings.

On a tangent here, getting cylinder head off.
1- Took valve cover off, camshaft is now visable, do the bolts that are under the camshaft hold the head to the block?
2- Taking the camshaft out, do the pulleys at the front of the block need to come off? i'm thinking so as the black shrouding that shields the (timing belt?) wont come off, or i'm doing it the wrong way.
3- Is the yellow line on the belt under the shroud the TDC mark? and what do i need to line it up with before i remove the camshaft?

[foggyjames]

As far as I know, valve stem seal failure will cause significant oil burning on over-run (eg: when you lift off during a gearshift).

You've obviously got some oil entering the combustion chamber on cranking, or maybe while its sat. How swiftly does the car start? Does it smoke worse when its been sat for long periods of time?

Do you get any blow-by (ie: pressurisation of the oil filler cap, assuming the crankcase ventillation system is clear)? I'd expect not. I'd be surprised if it's rings - NA redblocks don't usually wear to that extent until 200,000 miles plus.

cheers

James

[Lonewolf]

it starts on the second crank 90% of the time (the other 10% is when the immobiliser is on and it'll sit there cranking till the battery flats).

Yes it coughs up smoke more if the car is started cold rather than when its started warm.

The only pressurisation i've noticed is in the fuel tank when i undo the cap to fill it up.