Suspension lowering, angles and set-up

[Attack2001]

It is indeed a Riva I am looking for an LSD but not sure on the power capabilities of the axle just yet. It'l be getting a twincam from the fiat/lancia range of engines once i've got the money for it

Thomas............

[miniswift]

Hi Tom,

I think you sould go with smaller Jap engine as they are relatively economical and easy to tune.
I hate to think the cost of Fiat twink cost to buy and cost to run!
These days, you need to have small engine capacity as well as big BHP! I know of few Gti engine running 180bhp with std internal with TD04 Scooby turbo.
I made a log style manifold kit and it works well, and cost less than £300 to do! If you are going big power, I know of 300Bhp from these 1300cc engine.
Try that with Fiat Twink! thirsty, expensive, cost a lot to insure as well if you are not old one like me!

You can even try 360 gearbox with it to make near 50/50 weight distribution!
Just imagine what you can do going side ways!

Cheers
Atchi

[Nimminz]

I'd forgot you had that subframe Atchi! I'm a happy tester for aything LSD will get some proper testing after new year, one i fix the wheel bearing, swap the gearbox and do some gear linkages. Also We'll have to talk ITB's

Back to suspension, I'll try and get a photo of how mine sits at the mo with 40mm ebay springs. I'm having to change another radius arm mount as the bush cups have gone :/

[miniswift]

Hey Matt,

I need pic from the side pref with arms up as if car is on the ground.
So you will need to take off a wheel and jack it up using a bottom suspension point.
This way, I can see what it looks like at normal condition and work out how much higher I need to/able to move.

Cheers
Atchi

[Attack2001]

just a thought...

now after a rather in depth and heated discussion with a few drifters the other day, I think ive come across something interesting.

see now I always say, when your setting up a car, you lower it, stiffen it, and drop the nose so it has rake. The lowering gives a better centre of gravity for cornering, the stiffer springs stop body roll and help transfer weight more efficiently without massive amounts of body roll, however its the rake that does the most. With the nose dropped, coming off the lights the weight shifts backwards so the car effectively sits up 'level'. because of the stiffer springs this pushes the rear tyres into the ground giving maximum grip. (This also works well for fwd cars, as the rake resists taking the weight off the front wheels reducing wheelspin) The rake also comes into account during cornering, as the weight is already over the front wheels under breaking you get maximum breaking efficiency from the tyres, now when cornering the same applies, weight over the front wheels reducing understeer. the downside of this rake is the back becomes twitchy under breaking and cornering, however if you keep your foot in and dont lift off it is controllable (so ive been told, not got much experience of this yet) once again this also applies to fwd cars and also keeping your foot in, however I understand if you loose the back end of a fwd car you just correct the slide and nail it to pull the front round.

Anyway, whenever anyone asks me about setup etc thats what I say as if you can keep on top of the back end its a fast set up. Now my point is whenever you say this to a drifter they always say no, wrong, you want the back end down (as in reverse rake). Looking at it from a circuit setup view of things this would make the steering twitchy at high speeds aswell as understeer through the corners. aswell as increasing the likely hood of lock up under breaking. but it was then I realised drifters dont use the front end under breaking, nor do they use the breaks coming into the corner. They pull the handbrake locking up the rear wheels, slide into the corner and nail it. So the extra weight over the rear wheels means if they need to slow the slide lifting off or applying the handbrake theres less likely hood of locking the wheels, however if they do lock up the extra weight on the tyres slows the car down faster. Now because they enter the corner on the handbrake, their not using the front wheels apart from I gather the odd dab on the breaks but mostly steering. So unlike a track set up where you need maximum front grip to slow down (lower arm angles, bump/roll steer etc) drfters can run abnormally acute camber angles and castor angles set up to give maximum front end grip while there on full lock. I'am led to believe this back end down set up is their "grip set up". But from what I can gather is useless for circuit use.

So what do you think?

**and this is where I refrain from wrtiting a comment about how track cars are setuo properly for actually going fast** wink wink haha

Thomas.............

p.s forgive my grammar/spelling mistakes im on my phone and it keeps correcting... wrongly lol >.<

[olliehood]

This ones for the drift nuts but others feel free to jump in,

Basically my car is on gaz coil overs in the front with s13 strut tops and lowered 3 inches on the back inning 13" wheels.

I am looking into cutting my hubs a for quicker steering and a little more lock and have a few issues, basically I am have a little problems with overs centering and bump steer as it sits just now, so after looking through attacks post and the photos I have done a little research into rosé joints as track rod ends, apparently these should help with over centering and if i use spacers to lower the arm downs to being almost flat this should helps with bump steer, it seems like a win wins but I dunno if I have got the wrong end of the stick.

What's everyone's thoughts on this .

Cheers

[wiganer31]

im going to have to have a read threw this thread, looked under the front today and my wish bones are pointing uop like the pic in the first post, not read threw here yet but im guessing that aint good,

will have a read threw soon



cheers

[Chris_C]

You have no idea how happy I am to see people thinking and talking about all this.

Ollie, best thing I can suggest is get lego/meccano/cornflake packets and split pins for pivots etc and copy what is on your car. Then move things and see what happens to the steering, you'll learn a huge amount compared to just reading stuff, then work out where you think problems are stemming from and you can target your fixes.

Problem is even with you listing whats on your car, I've seen several ways of fitting the same components and it all leads to variation. Understanding what your own car is doing is vital.

[olliehood]

You have no idea how happy I am to see people thinking and talking about all this.

Ollie, best thing I can suggest is get lego/meccano/cornflake packets and split pins for pivots etc and copy what is on your car. Then move things and see what happens to the steering, you'll learn a huge amount compared to just reading stuff, then work out where you think problems are stemming from and you can target your fixes.

Problem is even with you listing whats on your car, I've seen several ways of fitting the same components and it all leads to variation. Understanding what your own car is doing is vital.

The meccano is a good idea mate i like this , was looking at my car today as well, looks like there is space to extend the wishbone up and make them level just with an extended mount where the wishbone bolts on. I think thats what attack2001 was saying and it seems like it would work and cost little money just a little fab work. dont mind the work just want the understanding, The rose joints would be adjustable by means of different spacers for making them further away from the hub or closer.

[classicswede]

What this thread is highlighting is that it can be very to modify with the best intensions but end up making the road holding worse and introducing handling problems.

75mm is realy the limit for lowering the as at that height the lower arm sits almost level. Go any further then you will need to be doing something to correct the angle of the lower arm and steering arm. With the 240 there are spacers available for just this purpose but with the 300 things are not so simple. The steering arm is simple enough and the same solution can be aplied however the lower arm is a differnt situation. As the 300's ball joint is bolted on below the bottom, you can not simple move it to the top as the tie bar bolts through the top and is in the way. Also moving it to the top with increase the stress on the bolts so it is not a viable solution.

The only sensible answer I can see would be a totaly new strut that would be a little shorter to keep travel with extream lowering and a repositioned bottom ball joint mount and possibly make a bolt on leg for the track rod so that you could offer a choice in length for differnt geared steering. A product like this is something that would only realy sell to the drift comunity. With the cost involved in making something like that the numbers would just never be there to make it viable. The alternative would be a new lower arm probably adjustable and a new adjustable tie bar.

To be fair Volvo did not do a bad job with the 300's suspension setup and with just minor tweaks it will handle very well and is quick on the road. It's squeezing that last ounce out that takes a lot. If you can do it right then you would have one great car, get it worng and you would be much better sticking with the stock setup.


This is a good thread discussing altering the suspension but what you do need to bear in mind is that diffent types of racing need a differnt setup for best results. A rally car is not going to make a good drift car without alterations. Again it is not just the car but the driver that will vary, some drivers prefer slight under steer others oversteer. It is for that reason that a lot of tuning product are adjustable to cover a number of aplications.

[olliehood]

What this thread is highlighting is that it can be very to modify with the best intensions but end up making the road holding worse and introducing handling problems.

75mm is realy the limit for lowering the as at that height the lower arm sits almost level. Go any further then you will need to be doing something to correct the angle of the lower arm and steering arm. With the 240 there are spacers available for just this purpose but with the 300 things are not so simple. The steering arm is simple enough and the same solution can be aplied however the lower arm is a differnt situation. As the 300's ball joint is bolted on below the bottom, you can not simple move it to the top as the tie bar bolts through the top and is in the way. Also moving it to the top with increase the stress on the bolts so it is not a viable solution.

The only sensible answer I can see would be a totaly new strut that would be a little shorter to keep travel with extream lowering and a repositioned bottom ball joint mount and possibly make a bolt on leg for the track rod so that you could offer a choice in length for differnt geared steering. A product like this is something that would only realy sell to the drift comunity. With the cost involved in making something like that the numbers would just never be there to make it viable. The alternative would be a new lower arm probably adjustable and a new adjustable tie bar.

To be fair Volvo did not do a bad job with the 300's suspension setup and with just minor tweaks it will handle very well and is quick on the road. It's squeezing that last ounce out that takes a lot. If you can do it right then you would have one great car, get it worng and you would be much better sticking with the stock setup.


This is a good thread discussing altering the suspension but what you do need to bear in mind is that diffent types of racing need a differnt setup for best results. A rally car is not going to make a good drift car without alterations. Again it is not just the car but the driver that will vary, some drivers prefer slight under steer others oversteer. It is for that reason that a lot of tuning product are adjustable to cover a number of aplications.

by moving the arm i was meaning the back where it bolts through the subframe. move it up the arm will then become straigith, still keeping the ball joint bolted in the same place, only problem i can see is the tie rod or bar that bolts ontop of the wishbone, would this twist round slightly to allow for the lift or would it muck up comletely.

[classicswede]

You could do something with the crossmember to lift the point where the wishbone bolts through but you will then need to do something with the tie bar to correct that.

[olliehood]

Not really looked into it that far but I suppose you could bolt underneath ? Just a guess really as I haven't looked thA in depth. Going to take my subframe off tonight and have a look

[Nimminz]

I had been thinking about this and sketching it down on paper, then i thought i'd draw it on the computer so it's clear, then thought i might as well upload it



I also started working out how to work out the amount to move it up by, without just guessing or having to crawl under the car and hold things up to see.
Not a clue if it's any where near correct or if anyone will understand it. it's a view from the front / rear



That should give the amount to move the arms up by to have them sit horizontal under compression. Although you would move the mounts vertically not on an arc, the balljoint would move round the exact same sized arc and so i guessed this would be fine.
a could be easily measured using a protractor and a plumb line, its the angle the arms sit at at rest with driver in etc.
b is measured the same way just with the front suspension compressed, sit a mate on each wing? then subtract the at rest value
l is simply the measurement between the centre of the ball bit of the ball joint to the centre of the bolt through the bottom arm pivot.

so say they sit at a 15 degree angle, at rest. when compressed it's 20 degrees and the length is 200mm

((2 * 3.14 * 200) / 360) * (15 + (20-15)) =
(1256 / 360) * 20 =
69.77777 mm

After typing it all out i can see it can be simplified quite a bit lol

[Attack2001]

That diagrams perfect! a picture tells a thousands words, it has been duelly downloaded haha I can now use that "and this little boy's is why your "slammed banging civic" does not go round corners "

Thanks, Thomas........