B19 + B200E + turbo

[ch]

I have 340 with B19 engine and a other car for spare parts with B200E. So i want to take the injection from b200e and but it on to b19, so i can put a turbo on it. what to you think about it?

[foggyjames]

Neither setup will fuel correctly for boost when standard. If the B19 has the sidedraft SU-style carb, a 'boost kit' is available for it, to adapt it for pressurised operation. That might be your best option!

cheers

James

[ch]

but bigger injectors and more powerful fuel pump?

[jtbo]

but bigger injectors and more powerful fuel pump?

I think fuel pump is ok unless you are going to insane power levels (over 100hp/litre), bigger injectors are good call, check that those are high impedance or get resistor pack with injectors if you get low impedance versions.
Don't get too big injectors as stock efi is not able to adjust anything actually so you can end up running too rich all the time.
You only need more fuel when going to boost and some adjustable fuel pressure regulator would work well, stock injectors are getting small after 150hp but with more fuel pressure you can get bit more.
Get progressive fuel pressure regulator so that you get more fuel pressure at boost.

I don't think carbs are today useful, but I know foggy is carb fan and I'm efi fan so you can't get unbiased answers

[foggyjames]

Obviously EFI is more accurate, but unless you're installing a programmable system like Megasquirt, it's a nightmare to tune an engine properly. I thought perhaps carbs would be easier than wiring in a new EMS?

Personally, I would steer well clear of 'playing' with a stock EFI system, especially one not designed for boost. It can be done, but it's not good for reliability.

cheers

James

[jtbo]

Obviously EFI is more accurate, but unless you're installing a programmable system like Megasquirt, it's a nightmare to tune an engine properly. I thought perhaps carbs would be easier than wiring in a new EMS?

Personally, I would steer well clear of 'playing' with a stock EFI system, especially one not designed for boost. It can be done, but it's not good for reliability.

cheers

James

Fuse's car has turbo (what, over 10 years already?) and stock efi with one extra injector, which is not needed if you have adjustable fuel pressure regulator and bit bigger injectors, also you can get more power out then too.

Carbs are easier for some and wiring new efi is easier for some, you need to tune carbs too

[A M R]

go with the carbs

well my test is coming up in less than 2 weeks and i need to find a suitable 360. i cant find a GLE anywhere and i want carbs! is there any difference in power between GLE and bottom-spec 360?

how would i go about converting a GLT to twin carbs?

if anyones got a GLE for sale or knows of one coming up for sale soon then please tell me! (must have power steering)

cheers guys.

edit: sorry to steal your thread...

[Fuse]

Twin carbs really aren't so bad, when tuned properly they don't need much touching and adjustment afterwards.. This one guy here is running twin Dellortos in his 360 turbo, B19ET bottom end. It's a very nice engine.

New carbs are costly though but used ones are sometimes available for cheap price.

I can understand very well if someone doesn't like to dabble with electronics, or has pair of suitable carbs already on the shelf etc.. it's not a bad choice.

I prefer EFIs also but I wouldn't mind carbs either.. My ex-neigbour had a 9sec Valiant, street car and driven on the street. It had a Holley and it went fast enough..

Our GL has also carb, Weber 32DAT. It hasn't needed pretty much any adjustment over 10 years we've had the car, always passes the smog test with clean figures and there hasn't been any problems with the mixture in any conditions.. It has been adjusted twice, first when we bought the car and at the next time two years ago when repair kit was fitted.

[A M R]

nice!

well part of the reason is that i cba with the electronics and the other part is that my uncle has some dellortos, webers, and some carbs of an old roller lying around in his garage somewhere

also twin carbs sound the bollocks!

[Fuse]

Fuse's car has turbo (what, over 10 years already?) and stock efi with one extra injector, which is not needed if you have adjustable fuel pressure regulator and bit bigger injectors, also you can get more power out then too.

Yeah, my GLT has had that ERL system (ECU controlling the fifth injector) for at least 10 years, legal papers say -94 but it could have been much earlier when the turbo was originally installed, as they started really marking and checking for aftermarket turbos in -98 or so. I've had the car for two years now, I don't know much about the car's history.

The system is working perfectly, I have no complaints what so ever. I don't have much boost but as I'm not currently needing more, the system is just enough for me. No flatspots or nothing, it's really nice to drive in every day traffic, there's plenty of torque available at low RPM and it doesn't choke at high RPM's either. I think my car is now in a state, how 360 should have been from the factory. (Minus the few rust spots ) Nothing super fast, but it keeps up with most of the cars you see daily in the road. It's a good platform for more.

But like I said in my previous post, I don't have any bad experiences with carbs either. So I like both.

[foggyjames]

I'm just not a fan of adjustable FPRs and the like. I know they can be made to work properly, but it seems like a 'hack' to me - why not take a little extra time do it 'properly'? If the extra injector(s) is controlled by an ECU, that's just fine

One of the guys on Turbobricks is running 13s in the 1/4 mile by 'hacking around' the stock LH2.4 fuel system, and he uses his good times at the track to justify the dubious stuff he's done. Just because the car is fast doesn't mean the work is clever. I'm likely to be much more impressed by a well engineered 200hp car than a 400hp one which is liable to blow up at any moment!

There are various ways you can do it, but I'd urge you to 'do it properly', whatever you choose.

cheers

James

[A M R]

^^^ mate, stop gunning him (well, his car). the cars been like that for 10 years or so and it seems to be fine. you can call it 'hacking' or whatever you like but its just another route for getting to the same point. it doesnt make the car any less reliable by fiddling with the FPR and also bear in mind the time and money the 'proper' way would involve.

everyone has their own preferences and as long as it doesnt affect the cars reliability im sure its fine. i dont doubt for a second that you wouldnt 'hack' if you didnt have or didnt want to spend a lot of money for something that could achieve the same result at a very cost-effective price.

[Fuse]

I think Foggy wasn't targetting me, or anyone in that matter.

I also agree with him that no matter what you do, cheap or expensive, it should be done properly. But it doesn't mean that it's not a working solution if it's not expensive or some high-spec stuff. There are many ways to get things work and many of them aren't so expensive.

I don't have FPR in my car, just the stock fuel rail and regulator.

Controller: http://koti.mbnet.fi/mtn/images/autot/GLT/mapfueler/ There are few RPM points where to adjust the duty cycle, between those the controller adjusts the cycle steplessly, and then there's a pressure switch which determines when the ECU comes on. Pretty simple, but hey it's from the late 80's / early 90's.

Extra injector: http://koti.mbnet.fi/mtn/images/autot/G ... suutin.jpg

One guy here had also the same ERL controller in his car and he got 100hp over the capabilities of the completely stock ECU with stock injectors, so it's not a too bad system either.

[A M R]

ah well maybe he wasnt, but yeh to each their own...

you do have a FPR in your car (fuel pressure regulator)

[foggyjames]

^^^ mate, stop gunning him (well, his car).

You might like re-read...I wasn't having a go at anyone here. I'm not enough of a prick to be rude about people's cars 'to their face' like that.
Fuse's solution is just fine (in fact it's better than I thought! Never seen those pics before...that thing is pimp!)...it's like an old-school piggyback.

There's a big difference between electronically fooling an ECU in a controlled manner (i.e. a piggyback) and 'hacking it around'. People do all sorts of stuff like adding clamping diodes to the AMM (to prevent boost cut...but it also prevents the ECU adding any extra fuel) then using an on/off pressure switch to trigger extra injectors. The precision involved is pretty damn low.

There's a guy on Turbobricks who had extra injectors wired to a series of switches on the dashboard for when he ran out of fuel at higher RPM for the boost he was running. After he toasted the fourth engine, he realised that was a stupid idea.

That's what I'm trying to avoid - people ghetto-hacking, and blowing their shit up. There's a school of thought (particularly at the ultra-low-budget end of the scene) which says that that sort of thing is ok, but I try to pursued people that that's not the way to do it.

Having read some of the local 'cruise' forums, it's no wonder to me that RS Turbos and GT Turbos have with a reputation for blowing up, what with some of the stupid stuff people try. Accurate tuning is totally the key to 'safe' power. The "set in stone" power limits for certain engines have been shifted up by 50-100hp with the advent of more affordable programmable engine management systems.

The route I'd suggest for people on a budget would be Megasquirt. It costs about £150, plus your time to work out how it works, how to tune it, and how to wire it in. It's not that hard, but it requires time and dedication. If you're not willing to put that in, I'd suggest you're not ready for the work a tuned car involves. Or to put it another way, I seem to waste far too much of my time re-doing jobs where corners have been cut in the past. Personally (when I get my arse in gear to actually do something!), I do it once and do it right.

Fairly often people try to say "can't I just boost on LE-Jet", and the answer is simply no, not in any meaningful way. You might be able to run 2psi safely, but with no guarrantee of extra fuel (especially at high RPM) and no retard-on-boost thanks to an NA Renix unit...you're not going to be able to boost enough to make it worth the effort.

Going back to our original poster, I suggested it might be an idea to look at the 'boost kit' for his carb. Being a B19 carb engine (with the 1.75" Stromberg, at a guess), there's almost certainly a "B19AT" carb kit available from many carb specialists, which would provide the fuelling for his setup, using parts he pretty much already has. EFI would be better, but in this fairly unique situation, building a 'B19AT' might actually be easier, especially if our man has a working knowledge of carbs but not EFI.

I really don't want to come across as a know-it-all prick. My car runs twin 40s, and they're really badly tuned in the progression stage...I hope I don't come across as preaching because I don't practice it To be fair, I just need time to tune my car, but I seem to have been busy for the last 6 months! What I'm trying to do is prevent people from starting out down a road which I've seen lead to misery.

Take Ali with his drift car...if he drops the B200FT lump in complete with LH2.4 management, it should work exactly the same as if it were in a 940 (which, let's be honest, are hardly famed for being unreliable!)....whereas he was thinking originally (I think...apologies to Ali if I've got this wrong) of sticking with LE and Renix, which then starts you out down a road of having to retro-fit an alternative system, and having the car out of action while you sort it out. People have been there before, and it's well documented, so I suggest we learn from that 'research', and get it right first time. As I see it, some extra leg-work up front gets us a 'factory' result, which makes it a no-brainer to me.

Ah crap, that turned into a huuuuge post

cheers

James