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classicswede
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Post by classicswede »

Ronnie wrote:[rant]
I think it's safe to say that Linda is not an experienced mechanic - but she's having a go at it and big respect to her for it. I can't think of many girls who pop off down the shops for a torque wrench. She's doing it the way the book says, and even a cheap wrench from Lidl is going to do the job just fine. Someone new to fixing cars is not going to know how tight is tight enough, or what is too much, so let her get on and do the job the way she wants to.

Supporting people like Linda is at the heart of what V3M is - so more of the constructive advice and a bit less anorak from some people would be nice. [/rant]

Keep your wrench, Linda, follow the instructions in the manual, and come back to us if you need any advice!


sm89

I think you are right this has gone way off topic.
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pettaw
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Post by pettaw »

yeah fair play to Linda for asking how to do it properly. We'll all be glad to help you as much as we can. Lidl stuff is never the best, but it should work a few times. Just so long as its the type where you wind the doodah to the correct number and then it clicks as you apply pressure and not the stupid ones with a big needle. If its one of those ones then I would be advising you to take your money back.

Dave, the air tools that the F1 guys use are possibly a slightly higher grade than the local techie in the local garage. I know my air impact ratchet has only 1,2,3,4. What torque does that correspond to? :? Also they only use one wheel nut to hold the tyre on. Our cars use 4, so uneven pressure begins to be more of a factor.

If you're doing the water pump, I would heed Adam's advice.....proceed very carefully cos the bolts will more than likely be seized into the head, and if they are, then they'll probably snap flush with the head, meaning lots of foul language and extra work to get the snapped studs out.

To see if you can avoid this happening. I would warm the car up thoroughly before starting, and then once its completely hot through, fan on etc, turn off and let it cool for about half an hour so you don't burn yourself. Then the hoses will be softer and less likely to stick to the radiator when you try and pull them off to drain the system. You'll need to get a helper to jam the water pump pulley with a big screwdriver so you can undo the nuts on it.

Once that's done, you'll get onto undoing the water pump bolts themselves. Use a spanner if you can to put reasonably firm pressure on if you can and then if nothing's moving, keep steady undoing pressure on and hit the nut or spanner near the nut vertically, which should help give it an impact force, don't try and hit the nut or spanner horizontally, ie: in the direction you're trying to undo it...that will over force it and you run the risk of snapping it. If its seized on the pump then a little WD-40 the day before will do wonders, if its seized into the head then that won't work, but a little heat directly onto the bolt might. Once you've got all that off, you need to extremely carefully scrape all the old gunk and gasket off the head, being careful not to damage it. and then refit. This is where the torque wrench will come in handy so you don't overtorque the waterpump bolts.

Anyway, I've rambled on far too long....let us know if there are any questions.
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foggyjames
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Post by foggyjames »

I thought I knew how to torque bolts approximately by feel. There's now the stump of a brand new bolt stock in the block of my 240. Should have cracked out my torque wrench ;) If you're a seasoned pro , fair play, but I don't think many of us are, so encouraging people to not do things by the book is a bit dangerous I'd say. I mean we've only just (nearly) got rid of Hugh... :lol: :lol: :lol:

Go for it Linda. I'm sure you'll get on just fine with the water pump. However, I'd give one more vote for the 'take it VERY easy with the bolts'. I'd spray WD40 on them, and all around where they disappear into the head for several days before you start the job - give it the best chance of working its way in and loosening it off a little. Once they start moving (enough for a gap to open up), spray some more and go and make a cup of tea. If they start to come out easily, then you can power straight on, but if they're at all stiff it REALLY pays to take it easy....spray, wait...if that doesn't work, it might be worth cracking out the blowtorch. Continuing to put your back into a bolt which is moving but very stiff is a recipe for disaster!

cheers

James
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mac
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Post by mac »

I have tried to resist it - but I just cannot! - I must put my oar in.

So, most mechanics don't use torque wrenches eh? - well they damn well should (I don't care how good they are or think they are). It is very difficult to sense by hand how tight a bolt/nut is - especially when threaded into aluminium. Torque values are given for a reason.
It might not matter if the water pump was attached by 3/4" Whitworth bolts into high carbon steel but its not. Its held by M6x1.0 bolts into aluminium !

I would feel confident in not using a torque wrench myself (although I always would) but to recommend a novice to do so is just plain silly, and no way to encourage or teach. If the "best mechanic ever seen" does not use a torque wrench when the manufacturer specifies it then in my opinion he is not as good as he seems. Just because most garages don't bother does not make it right!

Just to amuse myself I carried out a simple test. I took an M6x1.0 bolt to thread failure using a 5" spanner only, in stages measuring the torque. The bolt was spaced and threaded into a steel nut. The thread failed at just above 20Nm (which as I said I was applying with a 5" spanner - probably smaller than the average DIY tool). The torque specified for the water pump bolts is 8Nm. The point here is not so much that the thread failed (the thread engagement was much less) but that over 20Nm could be generated by such a short lever - and that would certainly be above the yield point of the thread in the aluminium head !!!

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Yes, a cheap torque wrench will be crap - but still better than a novice without one at all. The main problem with cheap torque wrenches (apart from accuracy and quality) is the range of settings that is offered. 8Nm may well be below the lowest setting available!

I have, in other thread ranted about 'doing thing right' and when advising newbies and novices this is extra important.

Mac.
pettaw
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Post by pettaw »

Too true Mac. I can torque up by feel, but tbh I wouldn't bother for important bolts unless there was no room for the torque wrench.

James makes a good point about once you've got the bolt moving, rock it back and forth to loosen the corrosion.....I'm not sure even soaking the bolts in WD-40 for a week would get enough to soak in along the bolt and get through the 2-3 cm length to where the threads are. You're asking a lot of capillary action there ;) Directing impact down the vertical axis of the bolt, along with heat are my best tools in the arsenal IMO, but sometimes you can't avoid snapping a bolt off.

Anyway, don't think we're trying to scare you off here Linda, the chances are you'll probably be fine, but its always worth being a little bit prepared...unlike Haynes: "Remove bolt and assembly"
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Post by classicswede »

Seing as the torque wrench topic is still going I will also point out that both Qucik Fit and ATS have issued branches with warnings about not using torque wrenches to tighten wheel nuts...... This is because wheels have fallen off and a number of court cases.
Dai

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petefarrell360
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Post by petefarrell360 »

Well I think everything has been well covered here, and I'm all for using the torque wrench, the settings and instructions are there for a reason. I've only just purchased a torque wrench to be honest, it wasn't expensive and a great make, but it's better than nothing. So far I've not needed a torque wrench, or Andy has been on hand with his, but I know I will soon!

One tip for removing nasty bolts, is once you've got them moving, don't be tempted to keep winding them out, despite the resistance. Foggy's description is good and it pays to keep adding the WD40. It seems wrong and like you're taking a step back, but once you've got it a little way out, cover it in WD40 and wind it back in gently, not to do it up tight, but to take the lubricant into the thread and hopefully it will work it's way further into the thread. Then it should get easier and easier as you repeat this and make a little progress on the unwind section each time!

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Post by A M R »

well looks like i got told... :roll:
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Post by redline »

we all know Dai has a soft spot for a wench with a wrench who dosen't mind getting her hands dirty :lol:



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mac
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Post by mac »

Just to add a drop more - the max recommended tightening torque for an M6 bolt in a steel fitting is 16Nm - rather less than I generated with 5" long spanner - nuff. said !

Mac.
linda
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Post by linda »

Hi evrybody....Mmmm I seem 2 have started a bit of an unintentional debate here....apologies 4 that....Ronnie seems 2 have hit the nail on the head in that I dont know how tight a nut should b so I may as well do it with a torque as second guessing.The wrench itself seems fine,it hasnt got a needle,its got a locking nut @the bottom.just 1 more thing should i have posted this thread in the 'forum' or the technical dept? :340:
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foggyjames
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Post by foggyjames »

All of the vaguely technical topics kinda blend into one. It's probably strictly speaking one for general technical or engine, but we're not at all strict here :)

cheers

James
VOC 300-series Register Keeper
'89 740 Turbo Intercooler
'88 360 Turbo Intercooler
'85 360 GLT
'81 343 GLS R-Sport
'79 343 DL
'70 164
...and some modern FWD nonsense to get me to work...
classicswede
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Post by classicswede »

A tip on torque wrenches,

set them to Zero after use.
This helps keep them in best calibration
Dai

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Post by jtbo »

I have some experience of snapping bolts and loosing threads, one trick to avoid that is to use specified angle, you tighten bolt so that it is just fully in, then turn for example 45 degrees if there is washer, much less when there is none (maybe around 15 degrees), spark plugs had 90 degrees.
Now I don't remember where I saw table where was torque angle and different bolts, good for emergency even maybe not so accurate.
Also in some places there is no space for torque wrench.

Maybe some one knows this method?

I don't own torque wrench, but I have had that on my list for 10 years, maybe some day, lol.
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