Shoot from the lip...

[Ian Mac]

Two things I enjoy are debate and controversy. With this is mind I'm going to stick my head firmly on the chopping block and say it - I don't like modified cars..

Admittedly as a youngster in the late '60's I aspired to own a lowered Ford Anglia with bulbous wheel arches and no bumpers and I confess that I once adorned a Mk2 Cortina with stick-on reflectors, a ridiculously small steering wheel, loose fitting seat covers and a Paddy Hopkirk door mirror. To my shame I may even have put wheel spacers and a whiplash aerial on a Mini Countryman and in a moment of complete weakness a pair of Raydyot Square Eight spot lamps and quarter bumpers to the front of a Renault 12 in the deluded belief that if you squinted it somehow resembled a Gordini....

I've even been known to visit custom car meetings in my Citroen Dyane and drool over Austin Devons with three inch windscreens, Rover V8 engines and chrome Jag back axles and well do I remember the immense thrill of driving my late brother's Ford 103e Van fitted with a 2.1 Pinto engine, five speed 'box and purple deep-buttoned draylon headlining…

But, and this is my point, whilst I appreciated the attention to detail and often faultless workmanship associated with modified or customised cars, give me a well maintained, unmodified and original car any day.

What greater pleasure than the rasping note of a Morris Minor exhaust, skinny crossly tyres which follow every groove in the road, vacuum wipers, push-rod engines and a choke you can pull-out…?

I view V3M regularly and it seems that barely a day goes by without someone posting about their modified 340 with stripped interior, welded diff, Clio engine, lowered suspension and fancy wheels and whilst I accept that we are all free to do as we please with our own property surely as enthusiasts of what is rapidly becoming a rare sight on British roads we should also be striving to maintain genuinely nice cars in their original condition.

How often do we see wanted ads for 340s to be used as ‘my daily drifter’ only for the poster never to be heard of again until he manages to break his propshaft by over exuberant use of the clutch whilst treating the public highway as his own private race track? Then we hear of rare parts being discarded, genuinely nice cars being modified simply because the original elderly owner blew-up the engine and the almost mandatory requirement to lower the suspension and fit Land-Rover shock absorbers.

So, apart from a desire to be deliberately inflammatory whilst placing my tongue firmly in cheek do I actually have a valid point? I believe I do. If the current trend continues I would guess that in five years time very few original and unmodified 300s will exist. Personally I think that the long established tradition to modify and ‘improve’ needs to be balanced by those of us who prefer to restore or preserve. Does anyone agree or am I out on a very dodgy limb..??

Ok, I’m ready for the crossfire, bring it on….

[volvosneverdie]

Nothing that hasnt been already said more than once.
We gain nothing from repetition.

I think theres room for everyone.

A elitist, 'i know best' stance is the first step on the road to dictatorship.

i prefer freedom.

[Ian Mac]

The difference is mate it hasn't been said before by me in my usual dulcet manner

I don't think I'm being elitist or even suggesting that I know best, I'm merely stating an opinion and inviting a response.

As for repetition we get that on a daily basis with the never ending stream of similarly modified cars and the somewhat unfortunate absence of cars which have managed to retain their originality.

As you say Ben, room for all. I'm just expressing an opposite view to that which we normally get

[macplaxton]

I'm not averse to the odd period modification of a car, but I like my cars bog standard too.

Unlike many of Ian's self-confessed crimes of the past. The most I've done to a car was fit some alloys and a down-draft Weber to a Reliant Kitten. The move to 12" wheels was for better/cheaper tyre choice and the carb was for better running than the SU. Unfortunately after I sold the car with a dead engine, the next owner skipped the perfectly good estate bodyshell and used it as a basis for a Tempest kit car.

I do sometimes wonder why go to the effort of changing so many parts on a car to get what one wants - when it might of been a better idea to get a different car needing less changes as a more suitable starting point.

Anyway, I happy for people to do what they like with their own cars, but please please please don't dump the bits you don't want. At least try and find a home for them.

In the meantime as space and time permit, I will be hoarding stuff for the rainy day

[SteveP]

Hmmm I'm going to sit on the fence here... and I can agree with some of your points, the cars that are near minters, low mileage and are running perfectly (especially the Mk2 and earlier cars) I think are well worth keeping near standard as they're on the very tip of being classic cars. If they've lasted a good 25+ years then it's a shame to do anything else!

However, the car that will otherwise be scrapped/scrappaged/rust into the ground with a blown engine/crap bodywork etc surely will benefit hugely from a rebirth with a modern engine and some suspension tweaks. Infact I think the ideal daily car is something oldish to keep it interesting/light and a modern engine giving good fuel economy, performance and easy running being fuel injected. I can totally see why the 16v lumps are popular like this. Take Adam's white car for example, modified fairly extensively but the base car would no longer be with us I don't think if it wasn't for the work gone into it.

The whole tramp drift scene 'attitude' can sometimes be annoying, but having recently looked up a black 360 GLT running a 2.3 940 engine on LH2.4 injection (a very neat install, I must add!) we can surely use this information to make the cars more enjoyable! I must admit though, they aren't normally put together with such skill. "Fuel pump wired to headlight switch" springs to mind

For me, with the 300's - as standard they don't really fulfill my requirements in a daily driver, but with a few tweaks and modernisation can make it an entirely different kettle of fish. And I'm still very much considering this in my next purchase!

[trabitom99]

OK, some thoughts, in no particular order, and I'm 100% sure I'm repeating myself here:

What really kills off old cars is lack of interest. Boring cars are the extinct cars of tomorrow. If anything, they get bought by people who just want a Cheap-Run-Around, and as soon as the supply runs out, Cheap-Run-Around Man moves on to something else, usually another Boring Car.

That means, it's a good thing if the V300 is becoming popular, not just among people who remember them from "them good old days", but also among people who would never have considered buying a V300 if it didn't happen to have RWD. Sure, this means lots of good cars are getting rough treatment, but, the values of V300s being what they are, chances are if Drift-Man hadn't come along, Cheap-Run-Around Man would have made mincemeat of the last good ones sooner or later.

CRA Man doesn't care about the car, and moves on quickly to the next CRA. Drift-Man may stick to the model, and even when he's grown up (sorry!) and moved to a FWD company car repmobile, he may remember what fun he had in his V300 and actually think of restoring one to it's former glory, sometime in 2020. Volvo NL made a million of the things (even if you'd never think it outside of the UK and Holland) so it is still, a mass produced car, and some versions will still crop up for sale sometime in the future.

Despite all that, I really do find terms like "tramped to death" downright offensive. To me, that cunjures up images of right-wing people with baseball bats hitting people who sleep under bridges. Seriously, I hate it.

My personal preferences? Again, most people here will know this. Although I find cars like Adams, and Anjos fascinating, and I'm really looking forward to see what Foggy's R-Sport replica will look like (and the rumours of various T5 conversions) ultimately nearly every car on this forum has been „messed about with“, as have my cars too, to a certain extent if I'm honest. So if a car comes along which looks like it's been untouched by history and the personal whims of its owner, I can get much more excited about that „time-warp“ car, than any modified car you care to mention. And with that opinion, I just know I'm in the minority on this forum

Still, I've been on V3M for 3 years now, and I'm sure I'll remain here even if I know my view of things is different to most

Tom

[Edcase 300]

These are some interesting and very valuable views here Its funny how people sometimes laugh at the 300 and how other cars such as the ford sierra and vauxhall cavaliers are considered classic cars....(i think both of those cars are pretty cool though defo)...to me though the 300 is a classic vehicle...

Im a mixed bag myself though-tasteful mods that improve a design+whilst preserving its identity=

Its nice how this website has the offer and demand section ...If only theres was a bodywork specialist where i live who would didnt discriminate against the Volvo....(i'll have serious words and will be expecting better excuse than 'trade street value mate- i dont think its worth it mate (missing the point completley and the fact your offering them good good money) ..

has anyone had this issue? (ok its not an MGB but its defo Retro enough for some appreciation)...

sos for rambling..just wanted to shove that in this thread..opinions guys?

[volvosneverdie]

What really kills off old cars is lack of interest. Boring cars are the extinct cars of tomorrow.

Tom

Thats a very good point Tom. And one i hadnt really considered before.

Montegos, Maestros, Horizons etc etc etc used to be ten a penny but theyre pretty much all gone now.
Im not suggesting thats because theyre poor cars, but I imagine the 'community' for such vehicles at the time were perhaps populated by slightly older gentlemen, who frowned vocally at any young lads putting wide wheels and (tries to think of a suitable period mod example) er, those strips that hang off the back bumper and cure car sickness. like Tom said, if more young lads were encouraged, more would have been saved ultimately.

Personally (as we see we are going down this trodden road again) I can get equally exited about a beige 343 in nice standard condition. (or rotten !) as i can about the amazing non period upgrades displayed in Adam, John, Anjos etcs work.

My car sits between the two camps.
period option touches are headlight protectors, wind deflectors,many gauges, boot tray, snow cap, volvo driving lights, bumper vents, leather interior, correct rear spoiler, front lip spoiler etc.
But then again, its lowered, has a deep dish suede steering wheel and is due some very modern wheels.

I maintain that theres room for everyone.
Tramp drift types are just what the banger racer is to the 'actual' classic car scene.
If the choice is that its either going to scrap or unleashed to breathe fire for a few months, then let the dragon have its day.

its up to US to try and steer (or convince) these types to uttilise scabbier examples rather than minters.
Which we all seem to do quite well.
Illustrated perfectly by the attitude of this gentleman and V3Mer:
http://www.volvo300mania.com/forum-uk/v ... f=8&t=9198

mrsoundcraft is proof enough that V3M is doing a good job. And hes to be commended for his maturity and general awesomeness.

[nomead]

Ah, well... I'm somewhere between "Cheap-Run-Around-Man" and remembering the good old days (of being a kid in a gold metallic mk1 343). Maybe I'm not taking the absolute best care of my car, but I keep it running, and won't go looking for the next one in case something minor goes wrong with it. I also do my share in keeping the 300 series visible in daily traffic. There's not a whole lot of them that I see around.

I also drive it like there's no tomorrow. Plenty of times, I've been standing in red lights, somebody comes from behind and changes to the next free lane thinking that this old geezer box 340 is slow and easy to overtake. HA! When the green lights come, I'm gone... Even now in the winter with bad tyres and all. But I see where the reputation comes from. When I see other 300s they're mostly very carefully driven by some octogenarian barely among the living and exceptions seem to be rare. Unfortunately. Haven't really seen any slammed 300s either. Even the younger drivers seem to be happy with just putting some alloys with low profile tyres under the car and that's it.

[Ian Mac]

You make some good points Tom and I don't disagree with you although I do think that in the main "Cheap Runaround Man' has probably moved on to Rover 400s, early Vectras, Mondeos and the like.

I also totally agree that there is room here for everyone and obviously if the choice is between scrapping a car or modifying then obviously the latter is a better option and if I'm honest I don't have an issue with the subtle modifications referred to by VND.

However, to me one of the beauties of the 300 is its mechanical simplicity and to suddenly start ripping the heart out of a nice car and replacing it with those out of a Clio together with the associated sensors and ECUs etc is contradictory to why I love 300s and I don't quite see the point. Then again I didn't see the point of my dearly departed brother removing a perfectly good sidevalve engine from his Thames van and replacing it with a Pinto but that is simply my opinion and if he was still around today he'd be kickin' my ass for daring to disagree with him...

I also don't have a problem with anyone taking a battered 340 and drifting it around a track but why on earth would anyone want to take to the public highway with a welded diff?

I'm simply saying that we should strike a balance between modified cars and those in original unspoilt condition and this probably puts me in the same minority as Tom. Nonetheless, I state my opinion without malice or personal insult and I welcome opposing views which are expressed in the same spirit...

[volvosneverdie]

I also don't have a problem with anyone taking a battered 340 and drifting it around a track but why on earth would anyone want to take to the public highway with a welded diff?

Ok.
Ian, have you driven a car with a welded diff?
I wouldnt weld mine, because its a daily driver, and im just not a commited not a drifter type.
Though I have driven a few though. And to be honest, i didnt feel the car was any more dangerous than my own. I drove more carefully if anything. Same as I would in a large van, or on a motorbike.
I dont think its necisarily the modification thats the problem. More the attitude of the driver.
I know many many people that have crashed cars. And i know 4 people that run welded difs as a daily (ones a cosworth powered mk2 Transit ) and none of then has had a bump.
As long as the person behind the wheel has good sense, then any legal mod should make no real difference to safety.

i have been known to put the back end out on a roundabout in a deserted industrial estate at 0300.
i would NOT do the same during the school run. or on a busy road.
Dangerous driving is absolutely objective.

Ultimately, sense prevails.

We cannot make idiots into better drivers. No matter what car theyre driving.
All that we can do, as members on this forum, is advise people the best we can.

Im all for open to debate and discussion, but damning any section of our membership is counter productive dude.

[magnumpi]

Different horses for different courses and all that.

But how on earth do you like the sound of a standard Morris Minor exhaust, for me it one of the most offensive exhausts i've heard, they rate on par with a Mk1 Fiesta

I just plain and simple don't like new cars, it's not because i can't afford one i just prefer to drive something old and put my own mark on it. Which will inevitably lead to modifacations of one sort or another. I've never owned a standard car since i passed my test and don't really ever plan on it either.

I bought the Volvo as i don't like fwd and wanted a cheap winter car as the Bug is no fun in without heaters. Now for my confession as everyone else seems to be doing it. I love my Volvo because it's old, quirky, different, rwd, and now quick but NOT because it's a classic and i personaly wonder if they will ever get that status? Now i came from Aircooled VW's and can fully appreciate a bone stock pre 60's Bug/Ghia/Type2/Type3 etc as they came from the factory, cable operated drum brakes and non syncro crash gearboxes and all. I get heart broken over seeing these irreplaceable mint collectors cars being modified by a bottomless wallet restorer (which is becoming far too common on the VW scene), this is something i know i'll never have with 300's. I'm not really sure myself what point i'm trying to get accross, but i think it's i don't mind modified cars but it depends on the rarity of the vehicle?

[volvodspec]

mine runs a welded diff, and i don't see any point for danger. i drift mine and i not only like the welded diff for the fact that it helps entering a slide; i also like it even more after i swapped it for an original one to try that again. first full throttle pullup i just stood still with 1 wheel spinning like a maniac. with the welded diff i do tend to spin op the rear tires at a ftp but not as easy, improving acceleration. turbo power eh

but then again, i normally drive like any other common sensed person, and i keep in mind that the thing is welded, so on wet tarmac, i don't touch the throttle in corners when the road is busy and i keep an eye on the corneringspeed. for the fun driving i do what i always do, fridaynight or sundaynight when all the roads are empty, then i have my real fun; alone with noone who potentially would be in danger, just me; the car and the tarmac. that makes all the mods i made to my car make sense. and offcourse there are trackdays, but unfortunatly there are too few locations or days just to have all my fun there..

as for the modifiers, i don't call a trampdrifter a modifier. trampdrifters are cheap scum that are handy with a flat black rattlecan and don't have any means of maintaining or cherisching a ride. a modifier on the other hand is someone who has some engineering skills, likes driving in a custom ride and wants to enjoy the car for many years on a top level of maintenance. i dare to bet that cars that are in the hands of modifiers live longer than a car driven by any other common person

[Ian Mac]

Ben, yes I have driven cars with welded diffs and yes I see the attraction - in the right place. There are sound engineering principles for equipping road going vehicles with a differential system and no one will convince me that there is any legitimate reason for having a vehicle with a welded diff on public roads, regardless of the experience of the driver.

I'm not damning anyone and I did say that I was being deliberately controversial with my tongue firmly in cheek. However a 17 year old kid with next to no driving experience in a rear wheel drive car with a welded diff and matt black bonnet, possibly no insurance and someone's teenage daughter in the passenger seat and two mates in the back, none of them wearing seatbelts is a disaster waiting to happen and I make no apologies for offending anyone who falls into this category.

Now THAT'S damning

[volvosneverdie]

no insurance and someone's teenage daughter in the passenger seat and two mates in the back, none of them wearing seatbelts is a disaster waiting to happen

Dude, put that driver in ANY car and whats the difference?
Welded/not welded, 340, bentley or a Saxo. makes no odds. youve already decided hes dangerous (probably correctly) so what does it matter what hes driving and what mods are done?
kids will be kids.
If people raise their daughters well enough then they surely wont be getting into a car with an idiot.

no one will convince me that there is any legitimate reason for having a vehicle with a welded diff on public roads, regardless of the experience of the driver.

I cant think of any legitimate reason that any production car would be allowed to be produced to run in excess of the speed limit man. If im honest.
But Im glad they do.

road deaths (in the US) killed more people (during the duration) than both sides of the Vietnam war combined dude, and it wasnt because kids were driving 340s, or because the cars had welded diffs.
driving is a dangerous persiut (comparitively) and rather than enforce further restriction, we'd probably be better off controlling our daughters more effectivly, and driving our cars in a continued responsible (which of course is arguable) manner.

As far as i can see, telling people what to do has NEVER worked. Historically.
We are best advising.