Poor starting & poss. overheating on B200Fs

[trabitom99]

Poor starting / overheating? on B200Fs

I've got 2 360 B200Fs, with slightly different engine problems.

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Car 1, the '88 GLi
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#Starting#
starts well in any weather, however when the outside temperatures are cold the idles drop rediculously low (~500 rpm) and I'm pretty sure I can smell petrol. Once the car warms up, everything is fine, it idles at around 8/900 rpm.

#Cooling#
No problems. Even at outside temperatures of 40°C+ or steady autobahn speeds of over 100 mph the needle barely moves much beyond the middle of the gauge.

All the air & fuel filters on this car are new(ish) as is oil & water.

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Car 2, the '88 GLT
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#Starting#
doesn't start as well as the GLi. It seems to take longer to "catch", and it doesn't seem to make much of a difference whether it's a cold or a warm start. Three or four times in the last 6 months it hasn't started at all in the mornings, come mid-day however, the car starts. Idle speed is quite high, around 1250 rpm.

To cut down the possibility of it being ignition, I put new spark plugs in and swapped dizzy cap, rotor, leads and the renix module over from the GLi. It doesn't seem to have made much difference, I haven't had a non-starter since then but then I only swapped the parts over last weekend.

The exhaust manifold is blowing a little, possibly affecting the lambda oxygen sensor (screwed into the manifold).

#Cooling#
Whenever the engine is under strain (uphill, or motorway speeds of 75mph+) the needle starts creeping towards warm. This is still happening now, with outside temperatures of 0-10°C.
The thermostat is fine, the radiator looks like new, the coolant is fresh and the summer/winter position of the air valve (determining whether or not air is sucked from the exhaust manifold or not) was fine last time I checked it in the summer.

I'm losing a bit of coolant, but that may also be due to me not doing up the hoses on the radiator properly.
air filter is new, petrol filters may be quite old, haven't got round to replacing them yet.

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Perhaps it's a bit early to ask for advice on this, as there are still a few things I'd like to eliminate (fuel filters & exhaust manifold gasket, possible coolant loss), but I'm in contact with a guy in Holland who has following B200F parts.

Air mass meter
ECU
Injectors
throttle housing

Are any of these parts known to cause problems on injected 360s?



The other bits are from a 440/850 ...

Cheers,

Tom

[pettaw]

I would bet its either the thermostat seized partially shut, the water pump impeller worn out or the radiator clogged. I've put them in order of cheapness to fix cos tbh they're probably equally likely, given your description

The starting problem is more difficult. There is an issue with the ECUs where the electrolytic capacitors start getting leaky but I don't know exactly what issues this causes. When the car is switched off the entire fuel rail and fuel hoses right back to the fuel pump remains pressurised so if the fuel pump or the fuel pressure regulator are faulty then fuel pressure could leak out and that could cause dodgy starting...its not an easy one though.

[trabitom99]

Andy, thanks for your advice, I must admit I kind of had you in mind when I was writing that post

# Cooling GLT #

I have a feeling the cooling problem may be a bit more complicated. When I bought the GLT it came with a boxload of used parts, the previous owner had kept anything he ever replaced, neatly stored in the Volvo box of the new part.

From this, I can tell that the thermostat and the water pump have been replaced at some time with original Volvo ones. Could they have failed again? Maybe, but my GLi still has its original water pump and thermostat even after nearly 300T kms*.

The radiator also looks brand new. No tell-tale bits of green oxidated copper, This was one replacement the guy didn't keep (who would keep a knackered old radiator?) but it really looks like it was fitted yesterday - I had the bumper off once and a spare ready but it looked so good I just couldn't see it being the cause of the problem. After a short drive the radiator is too hot to touch (with a slight temperature difference between top and bottom) so I'm fairly sure the thermostat is opening.

I've got a bit of coolant loss, but there's no tell-tale muck in the coolant, or bubbles on the dipstick. Are there any other tell-tale signs of a blown head gasket?

# Starting GLT #

The starting problems on the GLT have been early in the morning, when it's colder and possibly damper. A couple of hours later, the car starts. Would that still be lack of fuel pressure? Or perhaps a sticky aux air valve, or a faulty air mass meter sending the wrong readings to the ECU?

# over-fuelling GLi #

Could that be caused by leaky electrolytic capacitors in the ECU then?

One last question, and the reason I originally posted this despite not having narrowed down the problems well enough - out of the parts listed above, which would make sense to keep as a replacement? Perhaps the air mass meter and the ECU? The guy isn't letting them go cheap unfortunately, so I don't really want to go buying something I might never need.

Thanks again!

Tom

<edit>* I was leafing through the previous owner's documents the other day, and found they had been replaced - sometime in the first 100T kms ...
</edit>

[petefarrell360]

Hi Tom,

We had a 360 once that was a bit of a nightmare for starting in the mornings. Never did figure it out, it was sadly before I was old enough to understand enough and get involved, but it had many new parts and tests done to try and figure it out.

My current GLT has an issue with starting from warm. I think that is electrical though, as it'll crank over without even a hint of firing, for ages, and if you wait long enough it will catch. However if you instantly realise it's not going to start straight away, turn off and try again and it will start instantly! It's not bothered me as it does start, it's reliable and the B200E is coming out at some point anyway I hope.

Pete

[pettaw]

If its only first thing in the morning, I would suspect the cold start injector circuit. Its completely seperate from the main ECU controlled injectors.

It uses 12V from the wire that goes to the starter, the stripy one, which connects to a sensor on the cylinder head, the one on the side, towards the back of the engine. Its a bimetallic switch with a heater built into it, so that it turns on the cold start injector for a decreasing amount of time depending on how cold it is.

Before changing anything I would just try cleaning all the connections over. If that doesn't help, then you could disconnect all the injectors and ignition and remove the cold start injector from the manifold and crank the car over confirming that it sprays for about 1-2 seconds. Of course it'll only do it the once when the engine's cold, once that heater warms up it will only spray very briefly.

The overheating is a strange one. If you're losing coolant its possible there's not enough pressure in the system to keep it working properly. Its possible that something is furred up in the head rather than the radiator I suppose, but I've not come across it before, but it might be worth putting a flushing agent through the cooling system. Get a good one though, Forte make a good one here in the UK although its hard to get hold of, you have to buy it from garages, but I don't know whether they have Forte in Germany.

[trabitom99]

I drove down to my gran's house yesterday to swap the cars over - on the way down in the GLT at 70 - 75 mph, the water temp needle positioned beyond the middle of the gauge. The motorway crosses the Eifel and Hunsrück hills and here the needle started creeping towards hot, coming to rest at about 2/3 of the gauge despite the outside temperatures being around the 0°C mark.

Swapped the cars over and drove the 200kms back home on exactly the same road under exactly the same conditions at a steady 100 - 105mph in the GLi - the needle remaining bang in the middle thoughout the whole journey.

Thanks for the info, you've saved me a bit of cash and now I know what to check in the spring when I may have to resurrect the thread I'll keep an eye out for a good flushing agent in the meantime ...

Pete, I haven't entirely ruled out the starting problem being electrical as I'd only been running the car with the new ignition components for about ten days ... That's something else I'll have to keep an eye on in the new year.

Tom

[trabitom99]

Foggy's water pump availability post made me check the part number of the pump that's currently in my GLT. Its the wrong one, the previous owner fitted a pump for a B19, not for a B200.

Could that be the cause of the overheating?

Tom

[pettaw]

Very odd indeed. I really don't know......I know if the impeller is a bit weak and there's not enough flow then that can cause overheating

[Fuse]

Foggy's water pump availability post made me check the part number of the pump that's currently in my GLT. Its the wrong one, the previous owner fitted a pump for a B19, not for a B200.

Could that be the cause of the overheating?

Tom

YES! B19,B21,B23 have water passages in totally different position than B200 and B230. I'm surprised it even works.

Of course he could have always modified the pump or changed the whole pump flange to b200-one so water passages are on correct positions, but it doesn't sound like it if the car overheats.. I would definately check that.

[trabitom99]

Great Thanks for that!

Time to get a new pump then. Any recommendations on which make? GK, Triscan, SKF, and Quinton Hazell are all still on offer, price-wise there's little difference (60 - 65 Euros). They pop up on Ebay every now and then for suspiciously little money ...

<edit>...I've just noticed the cheap one (15 Euros) on German Ebay at the moment is from Halfords. Sounds like a bad idea ...</edit>

Tom

[shimon340]

hi there

could it be a faulty temp sender to the gauge?

[trabitom99]

Hi Shimon, I'm pretty sure the coolant temperature sensor has been replaced as well. There was an old one in the parts box I got with the car ...

Tom